Patenaude

Do these names ring a bell for you?

Jake Coker
AJ McCarron
Greg McElroy

Do you know what two things they have in common? All have won nattys at Bama. And all are very average QBs.

If you have a defense and a good offensive line you can get by with less than the best at QB. The QB position is not make or break for us. The OL and DL are.
This. UGAg had some incredible recruiting classes but what was the first thing that Kirby OtherwiseNotSoSmart did when he took over? Started heavily focusing recruiting on those huge offensive & defensive linemen because he knew what Saban does...you control the LOS and you most often control the game.
 
Only if the OC's we get are named HC somewhere every 2 or 3 years. We may replace a random coach every once in a while for other reasons, but there is no structural reason this defense will retard the development of this offense.

So the question: Does CGC do anything that would arbitrarily put the O at a disadvantage? Like what? The main ones would be recruiting and cherry-picking who plays D and who plays O. Yes, there is a natural normal tendency for most coaches to put the best players on D, but is there anything unusual with CGC?

Let's look at transfers. I see 6 transfers. 3 were for offense. The highest ranked three were on D, but that is explainable. The highest ranked had a past relationship with CGC when he was a DC, so following him is natural and normal. The second and third ranked are DB's, and CGC has a reputation for developing DB's into functional pros, and so initial transfers are likely to be over-weighted with that group. So transfers do not show a clear bias against offense.

Let's look at CGC's 2019 recruits. He slowplayed/rejected/lost two recruits. Both were offensive linemen who were not going to contribute... ever... and to my knowledge did not find a P5 home later. I count 9 freshmen he was able to gain commits from. 4 were O and 5 were D. The top player was on O. So far, everything within statistical norms.

Let's look at CGC's 2020 recruits so far. Of the first 21 current bee's, 12 are on offense and 9 are on defense. 4 of the top 5 are on offense. Does this show a bias towards offensive recruiting? Probably not, since we direly need offensive linemen and tight ends. Hopefuls for any remaining ships come from both sides of the ball.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? What about assistant coaches? Is that side of the ball getting the shaft? Can anyone say with a straight face that the offensive staff which includes Brent Key and Tashard Choice is getting neglected? I don't see how.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? He has defensive familiarity, just like the last coach had offensive familiarity, but all coaches are more familiar with one side of the ball over the other, and it seems that it does not have a strong statistical effect on team unit performance either way. I can anecdotally mention quite a few cases where defensive coaches took over and installed high-power offenses.

What else could a HFC do to upset offensive development? Does he have developing offensive players waste practice snaps facing a specialized defense, slowing their development? No. His defense, while more aggressive than most, is within the CFB mainstream. And I would think facing a sophisticated and aggressive defense in practice would help offensive development, not slow it down. CGC also emphasizes development, and runs double scrimmages to maximize useful snaps.

Does CGC unnecessarily hamstring his OC's? Force them to run unsound offenses? There is no evidence of that. The fact that DP and BK both knew CGC and followed him here is evidence that he does not over-manage the offense. Is he detrimentally detached from the offense? Based on his words and actions, I see zero evidence of that. He spends more time working with defense, but he makes effort to connect with the offensive players. Does CGC have a record of switching offenses faster than players can learn them? Not so far.

So how does all the above compare with the last decade, the situation that you fear will repeat but with roles reversed? You should analyze the last situation yourself, and with an open mind. What I see is a majority of commits in years past on the defensive side of the ball, but of those with unassigned "athlete" designations, they strongly tended to wind up on offense. I believe that is natural and normal in filling out a run option roster, and the sheer numbers of defensive recruits show a strong desire to fix the defense, although it also shows some mis-evaluation (or desperation.) The last coach had a hands-off policy on defense, and we tried a number of different defenses. I would not say this was indifference, but no one knows what happens inside meeting rooms, but I would be very surprised if the last coach was indifferent about our defense. Very very surprised. I think our defenses suffered from changing schemes too much. I have long said that it is very hard to build a strong defensive core, when your young players in peak development period are on scout team playing against your specialized offense. With the IIWII results, it is very hard to honestly argue against this.

Some think we had less ability in our defensive assistant coaches. I did not see that early in CPJ's tenure. Perhaps it turned out that way later. I don't know. I personally was not impressed with many of the replacement assistants on either side of the ball, when we lost one due to promotion elsewhere or being fired. And Sewak is a favorite whipping boy around here and he was an offensive coach. So I did not see any effort to make the defensive meeting room a second class destination. Did CPJ regularly attempt to connect with his defensive players? I will leave that question open for former players, who can answer more definitively.

But on the whole, I cannot imagine a decade-long defensive fugue to be coincidental, but the issues cannot be projected onto the new staff. I think the best fixes for our current offensive woes are a) persistent repetition of the new principles of offense, b) get healthy, and in the long term c) improve our recruiting. I don't see any of that being neglected right now.
Epic post.
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Only if the OC's we get are named HC somewhere every 2 or 3 years. We may replace a random coach every once in a while for other reasons, but there is no structural reason this defense will retard the development of this offense.

So the question: Does CGC do anything that would arbitrarily put the O at a disadvantage? Like what? The main ones would be recruiting and cherry-picking who plays D and who plays O. Yes, there is a natural normal tendency for most coaches to put the best players on D, but is there anything unusual with CGC?

Let's look at transfers. I see 6 transfers. 3 were for offense. The highest ranked three were on D, but that is explainable. The highest ranked had a past relationship with CGC when he was a DC, so following him is natural and normal. The second and third ranked are DB's, and CGC has a reputation for developing DB's into functional pros, and so initial transfers are likely to be over-weighted with that group. So transfers do not show a clear bias against offense.

Let's look at CGC's 2019 recruits. He slowplayed/rejected/lost two recruits. Both were offensive linemen who were not going to contribute... ever... and to my knowledge did not find a P5 home later. I count 9 freshmen he was able to gain commits from. 4 were O and 5 were D. The top player was on O. So far, everything within statistical norms.

Let's look at CGC's 2020 recruits so far. Of the first 21 current bee's, 12 are on offense and 9 are on defense. 4 of the top 5 are on offense. Does this show a bias towards offensive recruiting? Probably not, since we direly need offensive linemen and tight ends. Hopefuls for any remaining ships come from both sides of the ball.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? What about assistant coaches? Is that side of the ball getting the shaft? Can anyone say with a straight face that the offensive staff which includes Brent Key and Tashard Choice is getting neglected? I don't see how.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? He has defensive familiarity, just like the last coach had offensive familiarity, but all coaches are more familiar with one side of the ball over the other, and it seems that it does not have a strong statistical effect on team unit performance either way. I can anecdotally mention quite a few cases where defensive coaches took over and installed high-power offenses.

What else could a HFC do to upset offensive development? Does he have developing offensive players waste practice snaps facing a specialized defense, slowing their development? No. His defense, while more aggressive than most, is within the CFB mainstream. And I would think facing a sophisticated and aggressive defense in practice would help offensive development, not slow it down. CGC also emphasizes development, and runs double scrimmages to maximize useful snaps.

Does CGC unnecessarily hamstring his OC's? Force them to run unsound offenses? There is no evidence of that. The fact that DP and BK both knew CGC and followed him here is evidence that he does not over-manage the offense. Is he detrimentally detached from the offense? Based on his words and actions, I see zero evidence of that. He spends more time working with defense, but he makes effort to connect with the offensive players. Does CGC have a record of switching offenses faster than players can learn them? Not so far.

So how does all the above compare with the last decade, the situation that you fear will repeat but with roles reversed? You should analyze the last situation yourself, and with an open mind. What I see is a majority of commits in years past on the defensive side of the ball, but of those with unassigned "athlete" designations, they strongly tended to wind up on offense. I believe that is natural and normal in filling out a run option roster, and the sheer numbers of defensive recruits show a strong desire to fix the defense, although it also shows some mis-evaluation (or desperation.) The last coach had a hands-off policy on defense, and we tried a number of different defenses. I would not say this was indifference, but no one knows what happens inside meeting rooms, but I would be very surprised if the last coach was indifferent about our defense. Very very surprised. I think our defenses suffered from changing schemes too much. I have long said that it is very hard to build a strong defensive core, when your young players in peak development period are on scout team playing against your specialized offense. With the IIWII results, it is very hard to honestly argue against this.

Some think we had less ability in our defensive assistant coaches. I did not see that early in CPJ's tenure. Perhaps it turned out that way later. I don't know. I personally was not impressed with many of the replacement assistants on either side of the ball, when we lost one due to promotion elsewhere or being fired. And Sewak is a favorite whipping boy around here and he was an offensive coach. So I did not see any effort to make the defensive meeting room a second class destination. Did CPJ regularly attempt to connect with his defensive players? I will leave that question open for former players, who can answer more definitively.

But on the whole, I cannot imagine a decade-long defensive fugue to be coincidental, but the issues cannot be projected onto the new staff. I think the best fixes for our current offensive woes are a) persistent repetition of the new principles of offense, b) get healthy, and in the long term c) improve our recruiting. I don't see any of that being neglected right now.
I hope you didn’t take this long to respond only to me. But anyways, I do not “fear” any situation reversing.

PJ was great at offense. Not so much at defense. He let folks come in and do their job.

Sounds like you’re saying GC is letting folks do their job on offense. All I’m saying is they’re doing a crappy job, as evidenced by our offensive performance against S Fl.

GC is putting a lot of emphasis on recruiting. If he’s successful, it will be a tremendous boost to us. I absolutely believe a crappy OC can have a much better offense if he’s playing with better players.
 
Look, if you think last year's offense was an "outstanding" body of work for the entire season, we're simply never going to agree. It was fantastic for a few games but I can't possibly look at the O that played against Duke, Pitt, Minn, Clemson, and mutts and label it "outstanding" and that's almost half of the season.
Best to just agree to disagree here.

Was the 2009 offense outstanding?
 
I think a lot of folks forget (or didn't know) that CPJ started as a defensive coach. I'm guessing he would have been pretty good at it.

But it seems to me, exceptions notwithstanding, that OCs get more promotions to HC than DCs do.
 
Well, if returning 5 out of 11 is 'the same', then sure. I thought all Tech grads could do math?
Yes or no, PJ would put up more offense with these players?

The answer is yes, but for one reason or another, we are accepting less from the current OC. These players are good enough to put up good numbers, just as the defensive players GC inherited were good enough to put up better numbers last year.

Not quite sure what we are arguing about
 
Yes or no, PJ would put up more offense with these players?

The answer is yes, but for one reason or another, we are accepting less from the current OC. These players are good enough to put up good numbers, just as the defensive players GC inherited were good enough to put up better numbers last year.

Not quite sure what we are arguing about
THESE players? No. Six of THESE players were not starters. Thus, you cannot extrapolate how they would do in his offense.
 
Yes or no, PJ would put up more offense with these players?

The answer is yes, but for one reason or another, we are accepting less from the current OC. These players are good enough to put up good numbers, just as the defensive players GC inherited were good enough to put up better numbers last year.

Not quite sure what we are arguing about
The answer is pure speculation. If the qb's can't make their reads on options, CPJ can't go out onto the field and make them for him, no matter the offense.

If we can't block, we can't block, and even your genius needs basic blocking or we go nowhere.

Do you think we would be 2-0 right now under CPJ? I don't.

Do you think we would be 0-2 under CPJ? That would just be speculation, but has a precedent from last year. But speculating on that would be a waste of time, much like your post's speculation.
 
Only if the OC's we get are named HC somewhere every 2 or 3 years. We may replace a random coach every once in a while for other reasons, but there is no structural reason this defense will retard the development of this offense.

So the question: Does CGC do anything that would arbitrarily put the O at a disadvantage? Like what? The main ones would be recruiting and cherry-picking who plays D and who plays O. Yes, there is a natural normal tendency for most coaches to put the best players on D, but is there anything unusual with CGC?

Let's look at transfers. I see 6 transfers. 3 were for offense. The highest ranked three were on D, but that is explainable. The highest ranked had a past relationship with CGC when he was a DC, so following him is natural and normal. The second and third ranked are DB's, and CGC has a reputation for developing DB's into functional pros, and so initial transfers are likely to be over-weighted with that group. So transfers do not show a clear bias against offense.

Let's look at CGC's 2019 recruits. He slowplayed/rejected/lost two recruits. Both were offensive linemen who were not going to contribute... ever... and to my knowledge did not find a P5 home later. I count 9 freshmen he was able to gain commits from. 4 were O and 5 were D. The top player was on O. So far, everything within statistical norms.

Let's look at CGC's 2020 recruits so far. Of the first 21 current bee's, 12 are on offense and 9 are on defense. 4 of the top 5 are on offense. Does this show a bias towards offensive recruiting? Probably not, since we direly need offensive linemen and tight ends. Hopefuls for any remaining ships come from both sides of the ball.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? What about assistant coaches? Is that side of the ball getting the shaft? Can anyone say with a straight face that the offensive staff which includes Brent Key and Tashard Choice is getting neglected? I don't see how.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? He has defensive familiarity, just like the last coach had offensive familiarity, but all coaches are more familiar with one side of the ball over the other, and it seems that it does not have a strong statistical effect on team unit performance either way. I can anecdotally mention quite a few cases where defensive coaches took over and installed high-power offenses.

What else could a HFC do to upset offensive development? Does he have developing offensive players waste practice snaps facing a specialized defense, slowing their development? No. His defense, while more aggressive than most, is within the CFB mainstream. And I would think facing a sophisticated and aggressive defense in practice would help offensive development, not slow it down. CGC also emphasizes development, and runs double scrimmages to maximize useful snaps.

Does CGC unnecessarily hamstring his OC's? Force them to run unsound offenses? There is no evidence of that. The fact that DP and BK both knew CGC and followed him here is evidence that he does not over-manage the offense. Is he detrimentally detached from the offense? Based on his words and actions, I see zero evidence of that. He spends more time working with defense, but he makes effort to connect with the offensive players. Does CGC have a record of switching offenses faster than players can learn them? Not so far.

So how does all the above compare with the last decade, the situation that you fear will repeat but with roles reversed? You should analyze the last situation yourself, and with an open mind. What I see is a majority of commits in years past on the defensive side of the ball, but of those with unassigned "athlete" designations, they strongly tended to wind up on offense. I believe that is natural and normal in filling out a run option roster, and the sheer numbers of defensive recruits show a strong desire to fix the defense, although it also shows some mis-evaluation (or desperation.) The last coach had a hands-off policy on defense, and we tried a number of different defenses. I would not say this was indifference, but no one knows what happens inside meeting rooms, but I would be very surprised if the last coach was indifferent about our defense. Very very surprised. I think our defenses suffered from changing schemes too much. I have long said that it is very hard to build a strong defensive core, when your young players in peak development period are on scout team playing against your specialized offense. With the IIWII results, it is very hard to honestly argue against this.

Some think we had less ability in our defensive assistant coaches. I did not see that early in CPJ's tenure. Perhaps it turned out that way later. I don't know. I personally was not impressed with many of the replacement assistants on either side of the ball, when we lost one due to promotion elsewhere or being fired. And Sewak is a favorite whipping boy around here and he was an offensive coach. So I did not see any effort to make the defensive meeting room a second class destination. Did CPJ regularly attempt to connect with his defensive players? I will leave that question open for former players, who can answer more definitively.

But on the whole, I cannot imagine a decade-long defensive fugue to be coincidental, but the issues cannot be projected onto the new staff. I think the best fixes for our current offensive woes are a) persistent repetition of the new principles of offense, b) get healthy, and in the long term c) improve our recruiting. I don't see any of that being neglected right now.


Well said. Can’t really add anything more. Especially on the point of how badly the old offense hamstrung our defense
 
O blah, blah, blah

And the fact that guys like Saban, dabo, John Wooden know that championships are won with D is still ignored by so many.
 
This. UGAg had some incredible recruiting classes but what was the first thing that Kirby OtherwiseNotSoSmart did when he took over? Started heavily focusing recruiting on those huge offensive & defensive linemen because he knew what Saban does...you control the LOS and you most often control the game.

He also had a roster of top QBs too.

Eason, Fields, Fromm were all 5 stars.
 
Folks forget how ugly it was in 2017-2018 and its near-complete inability to complete a forward pass. The past 2 years of 'success' were mostly TQM running endless QB Keepers. Folks forget how it got stuffed more often than not the past 2 years. I don't blame them - I've tried to blot-out what Minn and Duke did to us last year too. It was ugly and boring as hell and that was not a team in its first year in the scheme.

2014 was fun to watch but after that, the 3O was mostly ineffective (barring a few games in 2016 and the cupcakes like L'ville & VPI, who made ODU's offense look like a world-beater).

You’re missing my point, which is simply that it’s logical to assume it’ll take at least roughly the same period of time it took Paul Johnson to transition the offense from pro style to 3O for this coaching staff to transition it back from 3O to pro style.
 
You’re missing my point, which is simply that it’s logical to assume it’ll take at least roughly the same period of time it took Paul Johnson to transition the offense from pro style to 3O for this coaching staff to transition it back from 3O to pro style.
So, a couple games then?
 
The answer is pure speculation. If the qb's can't make their reads on options, CPJ can't go out onto the field and make them for him, no matter the offense.

If we can't block, we can't block, and even your genius needs basic blocking or we go nowhere.

Do you think we would be 2-0 right now under CPJ? I don't.

Do you think we would be 0-2 under CPJ? That would just be speculation, but has a precedent from last year. But speculating on that would be a waste of time, much like your post's speculation.
Fair enough. Speculation is a waste of time. So leave PJ out of it. I guess that brings it back to the beginning. Our offense looked like crap Saturday. It took a miracle fumble that the two proGT announcers called a touchdown to get us the win.

I believe we have the talent to be more successful on offense, especially against South Florida.

Further, I guess we all realize our head coach is placing an emphasis on recruiting and we want him to be successful recruiting and are hopeful it will lead to success on the field. So we’ll bitch and moan about this and that until we have a bigger dataset to analyze.
 
I believe we have the talent to be more successful on offense, especially against South Florida.
regardless of what YOU think about our overall talent level, the current status of the OL renders it meaningless.
 
Yes or no, PJ would put up more offense with these players?

The answer is yes, but for one reason or another, we are accepting less from the current OC. These players are good enough to put up good numbers, just as the defensive players GC inherited were good enough to put up better numbers last year.

Not quite sure what we are arguing about
Would a CPJ team have held USF to 10 points?
 
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