#10 is a Running Back - Marcus Allen

HelluvaMGTmjr said:
Well, like I said, I've been screaming for higher quality BB recruits for some time and this is very encouraging. A lot of people seem to be content with just anybody back there with a pulse since it is a given our BB will get 1,000 yards, but I was spoiled by Dwyer and want to see a stud BB own the offense.
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How is this encouraging? We recruited a guy who everyone else is recruiting as a LB, and told him he could play RB. I just don't think the Dwyers and Allens of the world are going to be lining up to play Bback at GA Tech. They don't want to play 3 yards deep and run head-long into the DT almost every freaking play, no matter how many yards they are guaranteed to get.

Now we can get few slot-back types to play Aback (Snoddy), as they can average 9 YPC, and a few marginal types to play Bback (Laskey), because they know their best shot to get yards is to play in a CPJ offense. The jury is still out as far as recruiting RB's, IMO. Charles Perkins may be the last top power RB we get for awhile.
 
I think it's great they're finding guys without much football experience (see Kallon) because it's easier to teach proper technique before a guy develops bad habits. But it can also be a bit more risky I suppose. But then again recruiting's kind of a crap shoot to begin with.
 
stinger78 said:
Charles Perkins may be the last top power RB we get for awhile.
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Just curious, why is he the cut off? He was recruited during PJ's tenure, right? If we can get him as a top-rated RB, why won't we be able to get others?
 
Deke said:
Just curious, why is he the cut off? He was recruited during PJ's tenure, right? If we can get him as a top-rated RB, why won't we be able to get others?
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I wouldn't worry about RBs. Finding good RBs is the easiest position to recruit. GT has had several productive RBs over the years and most weren't highly recruited.
 
Nashville Jacket said:
I wouldn't worry about RBs. Finding good RBs is the easiest position to recruit. GT has had several productive RBs over the years and most weren't highly recruited.
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Very true. Hollings, Daniels, Choice, Allen - none were top prospects. There are good running back prospects on just about every high school football team.

Also, I wasn't overly thrilled to sign Z.Laskey, wasn't upset either, just kind of neutral, thought he was a good athlete with potential to contribute in a variety of ways. But, after watching his senior film, I'm excited about him as a running back. He reminded me more of Dwyer than M.Allen did, tbh. He's got speed, athleticism, balance, vision, hands. If stars and hype didn't exist and I was just going on film, I'd say he had as much potential as almost any RB coming out last year. I could be wrong, sure have been before, but that was an exciting film.
 
NB: I didn't say we wouldn't be able to find good RB's. I said we'd have difficulty finding top rated RB's.

Perkins was recruited and committed in early 2009, FWIW. That position at GA Tech is not a glamor spot, like TB at UGAg is. Bback is a down a dirty position in our system, closer to FB than TB, except that you get 25 touches per game.
 
stinger78 said:
How is this encouraging? We recruited a guy who everyone else is recruiting as a LB, and told him he could play RB. I just don't think the Dwyers and Allens of the world are going to be lining up to play Bback at GA Tech. They don't want to play 3 yards deep and run head-long into the DT almost every freaking play, no matter how many yards they are guaranteed to get.

Now we can get few slot-back types to play Aback (Snoddy), as they can average 9 YPC, and a few marginal types to play Bback (Laskey), because they know their best shot to get yards is to play in a CPJ offense. The jury is still out as far as recruiting RB's, IMO. Charles Perkins may be the last top power RB we get for awhile.
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I think if we are ranked next two years and get good press on our rushing production, then premier RBs will come no matter what.
 
stinger78 said:
Perkins was recruited and committed in early 2009, FWIW. That position at GA Tech is not a glamor spot, like TB at UGAg is. Bback is a down a dirty position in our system, closer to FB than TB, except that you get 25 touches per game.
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I mean, I get all of that, I just don't understand your thought that we won't get anymore top power RBs when we got Perkin just two years ago running the same system we do now. What's different, or why is Perkins an exception?

Not trying to be a smartass btw, I'm legitimately curious.
 
cyptomcat said:
I think if we are ranked next two years and get good press on our rushing production, then premier RBs will come no matter what.
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I hope you're right, but having watched that position for 3 years now, I have my doubts. Again, not to say we won't get some good backs in there - and they will get their 1000 yards, too. Putting your hat into a DT almost every play is not what the marquee RB's want to do.

Deke, it's because the system is not new anymore. In 2008 Dwyer had lots of long runs, and many huge runs for TD. He had less so in 2009 (after Perkins had committed), and AA had even fewer last year. Now the overall production has stayed the same, but the teams in our league all are pretty good at defending that Bback now, so it's just a grind it out position.

25 carries per game is 300 carries in a 12 game season, 325 in a 13 game season. 1000 yards on 300 carries is 3.35 YPC. That's not huge. That also doesn't factor in the other 40+ plays we run when the Bback doesn't touch the ball, but still runs straight into the DT. It's old school smash mouth running football, not the pretty-boy stuff you see so much today.
 
stinger78 said:
How is this encouraging? We recruited a guy who everyone else is recruiting as a LB, and told him he could play RB. I just don't think the Dwyers and Allens of the world are going to be lining up to play Bback at GA Tech. They don't want to play 3 yards deep and run head-long into the DT almost every freaking play, no matter how many yards they are guaranteed to get.

Now we can get few slot-back types to play Aback (Snoddy), as they can average 9 YPC, and a few marginal types to play Bback (Laskey), because they know their best shot to get yards is to play in a CPJ offense. The jury is still out as far as recruiting RB's, IMO. Charles Perkins may be the last top power RB we get for awhile.
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I think you're overstating this distinction. IIRC, last year at this time, everybody was recruiting James Wilder as an LB but he wanted to play RB. He held-out for FSU to offer him at that position. Now, I'm not saying that Marcus is as good as Wilder. I am saying that coaches often recruit to what measurables seem to project as a more natural position (or something like that).

FWIW, his H.S. coach also coached 2nd Round Dolphin RB draftee Daniel Thomas and said that Marcus is at the same level.
 
AE 87 said:
I think you're overstating this distinction. IIRC, last year at this time, everybody was recruiting James Wilder as an LB but he wanted to play RB. He held-out for FSU to offer him at that position. Now, I'm not saying that Marcus is as good as Wilder. I am saying that coaches often recruit to what measurables seem to project as a more natural position (or something like that).

FWIW, his H.S. coach also coached 2nd Round Dolphin RB draftee Daniel Thomas and said that Marcus is at the same level.
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I have obviously not communicated. I think that Marcus can be a very good RB for us. I like that we got him, whatever he ends up playing, because I think he's a player. I'm just not overly excited about a RB that everyone else was recruiting as a LB - like I was about Dwyer and Jones, for example.
 
stinger78 said:
NB: I didn't say we wouldn't be able to find good RB's. I said we'd have difficulty finding top rated RB's.

Perkins was recruited and committed in early 2009, FWIW. That position at GA Tech is not a glamor spot, like TB at UGAg is. Bback is a down a dirty position in our system, closer to FB than TB, except that you get 25 touches per game.
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I disagree with your perception of the B-Back position. It is a glamour position and NOTHING like a FB. It is much more like TB than FB. It's also not running into a DT most plays. If it were, the BB wouldn't be our most productive position. For one, the Dive key is the DE, not the DT. The DT gets double-team blocked by the guard and tackle more often than not on the triple. Secondly, we often run a zone dive give where we straight up block all of the guys up front just like a conventional offense (as well as draws, counters, and traps). Third, Dwyer got tons of outside pitch opportunities as well because of his skill set. Both of them got opportunities to catch the ball out of the backfield and were very successful with those opportunities.

Also, I can't find the stats to back it up, but I don't think Dwyer's production and/or big plays decreased between '08 and '09. He won the player of the year in the ACC as a BBack in '08. Allen won 1st team RB for the ACC as a BBack in '10. The BBack position is a glamour spot.

Now, one reason I could see for having trouble getting top RB prospects for BBack or ABack is the perception of lack of translation to the NFL.
 
Jacket59 said:
Now, one reason I could see for having trouble getting top RB prospects for BBack or ABack is the perception of lack of translation to the NFL.
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Dwyer certainly isn't helping us there even if his issues don't stem from a college system.

Hopefully, Allen is successful.
 
Jacket59 said:
I disagree with your perception of the B-Back position. It is a glamour position and NOTHING like a FB. It is much more like TB than FB. It's also not running into a DT most plays. If it were, the BB wouldn't be our most productive position. For one, the Dive key is the DE, not the DT. The DT gets double-team blocked by the guard and tackle more often than not on the triple. Secondly, we often run a zone dive give where we straight up block all of the guys up front just like a conventional offense (as well as draws, counters, and traps). Third, Dwyer got tons of outside pitch opportunities as well because of his skill set. Both of them got opportunities to catch the ball out of the backfield and were very successful with those opportunities.
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We disagree on this. I also don't think the DT gets a double by the G-T, maybe the C-G. I'll watch some film, but the OT's I've seen are usually blocking in the 2nd level. Also, probably only 1/4 to 1/3 of our plays are the TO.
 
stinger78 said:
I hope you're right, but having watched that position for 3 years now, I have my doubts. Again, not to say we won't get some good backs in there - and they will get their 1000 yards, too. Putting your hat into a DT almost every play is not what the marquee RB's want to do.

Deke, it's because the system is not new anymore. In 2008 Dwyer had lots of long runs, and many huge runs for TD. He had less so in 2009 (after Perkins had committed), and AA had even fewer last year. Now the overall production has stayed the same, but the teams in our league all are pretty good at defending that Bback now, so it's just a grind it out position.

25 carries per game is 300 carries in a 12 game season, 325 in a 13 game season. 1000 yards on 300 carries is 3.35 YPC. That's not huge. That also doesn't factor in the other 40+ plays we run when the Bback doesn't touch the ball, but still runs straight into the DT. It's old school smash mouth running football, not the pretty-boy stuff you see so much today.
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I would disagree with this... You can't ignore the fact that 2008 Dwyer was a major home run threat, one of the best in all of college football that year, but by 2009 he had clearly lost a step. And Allen was just a different type of runner, still very productive but not the same threat as 2008 Dwyer.
 
stinger78 said:
We disagree on this. I also don't think the DT gets a double by the G-T, maybe the C-G. I'll watch some film, but the OT's I've seen are usually blocking in the 2nd level. Also, probably only 1/4 to 1/3 of our plays are the TO.
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If the DT is head up or outside the guard, the OT will combo block the DT, meaning he will "rub" the OT to help out the OG and then go to the 2nd level to the MLB. If the DT is inside the guard, the guard should be able to handle him by himself and the C will go to the 2nd level, but may help the OG if needed. Either way, on the triple, the DE has to take the dive, not the DT, so the BB is not smashing his head into a DT every time we run our bread and butter. And, like you said, most of the time we're running something different anyway. The only time the BB will be taken by the DT is on the midline when his track would be the A-gap rather than the B-gap.

And, for any RB, he's always going to be hit by somebody whether a DL or a LB, so a RB has to always have an affinity for contact or at least not an aversion to it. And, he's often a decoy or having to block on play action or straight drop back passes, so I would never see the BBack's role as a drawback at all in our offense as far as the attractiveness of the position. Like I said, there is the negative perception with regard to the NFL that would be the only negative I can think of and the negative recruiting.
 
Jacket59 said:
If the DT is head up or outside the guard, the OT will combo block the DT, meaning he will "rub" the OT to help out the OG and then go to the 2nd level to the MLB. If the DT is inside the guard, the guard should be able to handle him by himself and the C will go to the 2nd level, but may help the OG if needed. Either way, on the triple, the DE has to take the dive, not the DT, so the BB is not smashing his head into a DT every time we run our bread and butter. And, like you said, most of the time we're running something different anyway. The only time the BB will be taken by the DT is on the midline when his track would be the A-gap rather than the B-gap.

And, for any RB, he's always going to be hit by somebody whether a DL or a LB, so a RB has to always have an affinity for contact or at least not an aversion to it. And, he's often a decoy or having to block on play action or straight drop back passes, so I would never see the BBack's role as a drawback at all in our offense as far as the attractiveness of the position. Like I said, there is the negative perception with regard to the NFL that would be the only negative I can think of and the negative recruiting.
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The main complaint we hear is they do not like the idea of being in a 3-pt stance only 3 yards behind the LOS...and CPJ demands they do not make their first "move" until they are approaching the second level.

It goes against natural instinct and how they have played the game as youth as one of the best athletes on the field....where the ball was likely given to them deep and they simply created.
 
Jacket59 said:
If the DT is head up or outside the guard, the OT will combo block the DT, meaning he will "rub" the OT to help out the OG and then go to the 2nd level to the MLB.
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I wonder if this is why we got called for so many chop blocks in '08 and to a lesser extent '09. (Don't recall too many last year.) Maybe while our guard was going low on the DT, our tackle was "rubbing" high on his way to a LB? Just a guess. On combo blocks, both players should be high, right?
 
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