Coach Nell thanks the NCAA

gtg970g

Jolly Good Fellow
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If I was a coach in the NCAA tournament, I would not want my players to be lifting weights... male or female.
This. Are teams really working out in a shared weight room? Aren't they banned from going outside so why would it make sense to allow free access to a shared workout space?
 

The Jacket

The Coat
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I don’t know. I do know that women in America get many many more times the athletic opportunity as women in other countries and in some ways more than men in this country.
So again, as I said, you want to change the subject and I'm not indulging that or any slippery slope bullöööö about how if we treat the women's basketball championships fairly, next we'll have to be fair to everyone else. The subject of her letter (and this thread about it) is pretty evident if you read it, and if you want to defend the NCAA against the points Nell made, then I guess we have something to talk about.
 

GTCrew4b

All moratoria must be earned
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And I say we DO treat it fairly. You want to make fair across genders. I want to make it fair across skill level at the sport on question.
 

andrew

Bobby Bonilla's Financial Planner
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Because the disparities aren’t solely across gender lines. Not all men’s basketball players (who are student athletes) get the treatment of the Division I Men’s Basketball championships.
Got it. As you can probably tell, for me this all comes back to the NCAA being really restrictive about men's players being able to get paid in the name of amateurism and life lessons. Given that, I'm not comfortable with disparities between genders at all.

I do understand that there are also disparities within men's basketball, but men playing at a smaller D3 school getting worse treatment than men playing at a D1 school doesn't sit as bad with me as men and women at the same school experiencing drastically different treatment.

Of course, all of these are mental gymnastics that result from having a billion dollar industry where coaches are paid millions of dollars a year but players have to be "paid" in things like upgraded facilities and lazy rivers in the name of amateurism.

Once you establish that players aren't allowed to negotiate for salaries like in every other industry, you end up with arbitrary rules and talk about how to divide the money "fairly". And under-the-table payments of course, because the schools actually do really value these players and would definitely give them cash if there wasn't an agreement with other schools not to.
 
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OptionJacket

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This is not going to end well for women athletes of the future. Sure, the pressure right now will cause the usual lip service and empty gestures we all are use to. But down the road when the NCAA is finally shown the door as the big time football schools create their own organization the fallout will be everyone will have to find those dollars on their own. And the women won’t have the boogeyman NCAA to rely on. If anything women sports should be thanking the NCAA for the platform. They’ll complain themselves out of existence.
 

vapspwi

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Players (in revenue sports, at least) are also paid in the form of preferred admissions, free tuition, free room and board, and access to academic and athletic resources and facilities not available to regular students. So I’m a little tired of the “woe is me, gimme my money” bullshit; I don’t want college athletics to turn into minor leagues for professional athletics any more than it already is.

Rather than paying players in college, let the NFL and the NBA set up minor leagues and the guys that think they can get paid can go straight there out of high school. The guys who want to play sports while getting a degree that they’ll use to get paid after they graduate can go to college.

JRjr
 

andrew

Bobby Bonilla's Financial Planner
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Players (in revenue sports, at least) are also paid in the form of preferred admissions, free tuition, free room and board, and access to academic and athletic resources and facilities not available to regular students. So I’m a little tired of the “woe is me, gimme my money” bullshit; I don’t want college athletics to turn into minor leagues for professional athletics any more than it already is.

Rather than paying players in college, let the NFL and the NBA set up minor leagues and the guys that think they can get paid can go straight there. The guys who want to play sports while getting a degree that they’ll use to get paid after they graduate can go to college.

JRjr
If you're going to cap the compensation for players in revenue sports at cost of room and board, then cap the compensation of coaches and administrators as well. Pay them all half a million a year or something.

Then take all the oodles of money the revenue sports make and spread it out across all the non-revenue sports, including women's sports. Make college sports truly amateur and about sport for the sake of sport, not a money making venture where players just happen to be "students" (in quote because we all know at most schools they are students in name only.)

But don't cap the compensation for players in revenue sports, take the oodles of money and give tons of it to coaches and administrators, then tell women's basketball players they have to deal with much worse facilities than the men because they don't generate revenue.

Right now it feels like revenue generation is relevant only when the people who pay themselves high salaries want it to be. "Men, you want to be paid? No, we don't want this to become like pro sports, the revenue you generate is irrelevant. Women, you want better facilities? No, you don't generate revenue so it's only fair that we don't give you better facilities."
 

GTLiebs

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Players (in revenue sports, at least) are also paid in the form of preferred admissions, free tuition, free room and board, and access to academic and athletic resources and facilities not available to regular students. So I’m a little tired of the “woe is me, gimme my money” bullshit; I don’t want college athletics to turn into minor leagues for professional athletics any more than it already is.

Rather than paying players in college, let the NFL and the NBA set up minor leagues and the guys that think they can get paid can go straight there. The guys who want to play sports while getting a degree that they’ll use to get paid after they graduate can go to college.

JRjr
I think part of the point is that even these payments are not distributed evenly across genders for the same sport at the same school. In particular, this is about "payments" from the NCAA, not the schools. The NCAA isn't using football money to fund their basketball tournaments. The other question is if the NCAA is committing resources to the women's tournament commensurate with the revenue from it (not necessarily about being equal with the resources for the men's tournament).
 

The Jacket

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And I say we DO treat it fairly. You want to make fair across genders. I want to make it fair across skill level at the sport on question.
No, I want fairness period. I reject your obtuse argument that the below is the best the NCAA can or should do, and your garbage bait at turning this into a skill-level issue when it isn't anymore that than this is a space issue:

.
 

vapspwi

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I think part of the point is that even these payments are not distributed evenly across genders for the same sport at the same school. In particular, this is about "payments" from the NCAA, not the schools. The NCAA isn't using football money to fund their basketball tournaments. The other question is if the NCAA is committing resources to the women's tournament commensurate with the revenue from it (not necessarily about being equal with the resources for the men's tournament).
The post you’re responding to was really a side conversation about paying players that somebody else brought up, and isn’t related to the women’s tournament stuff.

JRjr
 

vapspwi

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If you're going to cap the compensation for players in revenue sports at cost of room and board, then cap the compensation of coaches and administrators as well. Pay them all half a million a year or something.

Then take all the oodles of money the revenue sports make and spread it out across all the non-revenue sports, including women's sports. Make college sports truly amateur and about sport for the sake of sport, not a money making venture where players just happen to be "students" (in quote because we all know at most schools they are students in name only.)

But don't cap the compensation for players in revenue sports, take the oodles of money and give tons of it to coaches and administrators, then tell women's basketball players they have to deal with much worse facilities than the men because they don't generate revenue.

Right now it feels like revenue generation is relevant only when the people who pay themselves high salaries want it to be. "Men, you want to be paid? No, we don't want this to become like pro sports, the revenue you generate is irrelevant. Women, you want better facilities? No, you don't generate revenue so it's only fair that we don't give you better facilities."
Why do you need to cap the salaries of coaches and ADs any more than you need to cap the salaries of professors and university presidents? The coaches aren’t amateurs, the players are.

If we’re talking about facilities at schools now and not just at the tournament, then everything that’s been said about spending in proportion to revenue (once some minimum threshold has been satisfied) gets magnified. Tech has a limited budget, and it behooves them to get the biggest bang for their buck out of that. I guess we’re mandated to have a certain number of women’s sports that practically nobody actually watches (just speaking plainly with no offense intended - I enjoy watching women’s tennis or softball or whatever from time to time, but it’s rare to see more than a few dozen people at those entirely free events), and we should make sure that those teams have adequate facilities and support (like our great softball stadium). If we can get more bang for the buck by sharing weight rooms and venues and things like that, even better.

But once we’ve met that “good enough” threshold, to somehow imagine that the level of expenditure at the GTAA level shouldn’t factor in the return the GTAA stands to earn from that investment is silly.

JRjr
 

ncjacket

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And I say we DO treat it fairly. You want to make fair across genders. I want to make it fair across skill level at the sport on question.
That’s a different argument and you know it. There is a reason there are different divisions. The point is d1 athletic championships should have equal support from the NCAA no matter the gender. As in, the women’s XC championship should be on par with the men and so on. The D2 women championships should be equal to the D2 men, etc.

Besides as someone whom has been involved in putting together large national conferences some of the stories that have come out of both the men’s and women’s tournaments showthe incompetence of whoever is in charge. They would have been better off letting the venues and hotels make the decisions.
 

savbandjacket

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That’s a different argument and you know it. There is a reason there are different divisions. The point is d1 athletic championships should have equal support from the NCAA no matter the gender. As in, the women’s XC championship should be on par with the men and so on. The D2 women championships should be equal to the D2 men, etc.

Besides as someone whom has been involved in putting together large national conferences some of the stories that have come out of both the men’s and women’s tournaments showthe incompetence of whoever is in charge. They would have been better off letting the venues and hotels make the decisions.
The Ncaa? Incompetent? Naw
 

18in32

Petard Hoister
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To phrase my previous post a different way, I don't think you can say, "Men's basketball players deserve significantly better facilities than women because they generate significantly more revenue" and at the same time say, "Men's basketball players shouldn't be allowed to profit off of their own likenesses or get paid in cash because college sports isn't about money."
Sure you can...

More to the point, it has nothing to do with who 'deserves' what. The AD's and AA's can allocate departmental budgets as they think appropriate. The reason they prioritize men's facilities is because it's successful men's teams that fund all the other teams, and good facilities lead to better recruits and more wins and more money for everyone.

Women's facilities and support are light years beyond where they were a few decades ago. If women insist on 'equity,' they are basically killing the goose which laid their own golden egg. It is classic collectivist thinking... they can't abide a rising tide that lifted all boats, because not all boats were lifted the same amount.
 
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