Inexcusable Loss?

johncu

Dodd-Like
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,748
There is no doubt that the Citadel loss was humiliating and probably the worst GT loss in my lifetime. However, taking a look at some other really bad losses from first-year coaches made me pause a bit in passing judgement against CGC and co.

----
Gary Patterson, Pat Fitzgerald, and Howard Schnellenberger all lost to FCS teams in their first year on the way to pretty rough season. I'd say all three did pretty well after that.

Frank Beamer went 2-9 in Year 1. He struggled for 6 years before posting 23 straight years with a winning record, including finishing ranked 17 out of 19 years.

Bobby Bowden went 5-6 in his first season. Then he had 33 consecutive years with a winning record before retiring.

Kyle Whittingham took over a 12-0 Utah team off a Fiesta Bowl win and went 7-5. He recovered to eventually pound #4 Alabama in the Sugar Bowl a few year later, and lead Utah to the Pac 12 and increased relevance.

Kirk Ferentz went 1-10 in his first season. He posted 3 straight Top 10 finishes in his third, fourth, and fifth seasons.

Dabo Swinney lost to 2-10 Maryland in his first full season as HC. He went 6-7 the next year, punctuated by getting stomped in a crappy bowl by a USF team that had a losing record in the Big East. Then he rattled off eight straight 10 win seasons, 5 ACC titles, and 2 national championships.
----

This is gonna be a tough season, for sure, but we're gonna have to suck it up and look for positives. The coaches above were able to recruit in the face of tough losses. Hopefully Collins can do the same, while continuing to build a strong staff around him.
 

FLTech

Banhammer'd
Ban Hammer'd
Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Messages
162
I'm embarrassed by our fan base. The majority sounds like a bunch of babies. Yes, I think our OC Coach P is brutal but I have seen improvements in every aspect of our game except for the Offense and we ALL knew our Offense was going to suck this season.
 

GEETEELEE

Dodd-Like
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
27,951
NO, DAMNIT! [stomps foot] WIN TODAY! WIN EVERYDAY! [stomps foot] OR WE'LL FIND SOMEONE WHO CAN! [stomps foot]
 

TampaBayJacket

Dodd-Like
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
3,598
I think we all hurt from this loss but 90%+ of us understand the big picture of us getting worse before we can get better. The complainers are a vocal minority.
 

GoGATech

Big Dummy
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
8,468
Now cherry pick all the crappy coaches who lost bad games in their first season, then went on to lose bad games in their second and third seasons.
You completely missed the point. That's the reason for cherry picking in this argument. Some of you act like there is no return from losing to a bad team, and that it's the be-all end-all factor for determining success of this coaching staff. He's simply stating that öööö like this does happen from time to time to good coaches and positives still come out of it. There are people acting like it's the end of the world and that we need to make a change now, after 3 damn games because they absolutely know it won't get any better.
 

johncu

Dodd-Like
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,748
Now cherry pick all the crappy coaches who lost bad games in their first season, then went on to lose bad games in their second and third seasons.
Bro, that's not how stats work, nor is it what I'm trying to say. öööö, I fully expect CGC to do worse than CPJ and did from the beginning, I'm just saying this rough start is not proof of that. Not yet. The above examples are clear evidence of that.

We are definitely seeing more excitement around the program, and we'll have a couple of years to capitalize on that. That doesn't excuse undeniably poor coaching decisions like we saw last week, but it does buy some time to figure some things out. Here's hoping we can at least find an offensive identity soon so that we can start to build on something.
 

BeeStorm

The Dark Side of the Force
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Messages
20,414
There is no doubt that the Citadel loss was humiliating and probably the worst GT loss in my lifetime. However, taking a look at some other really bad losses from first-year coaches made me pause a bit in passing judgement against CGC and co.

----
Gary Patterson, Pat Fitzgerald, and Howard Schnellenberger all lost to FCS teams in their first year on the way to pretty rough season. I'd say all three did pretty well after that.

Frank Beamer went 2-9 in Year 1. He struggled for 6 years before posting 23 straight years with a winning record, including finishing ranked 17 out of 19 years.

Bobby Bowden went 5-6 in his first season. Then he had 33 consecutive years with a winning record before retiring.

Kyle Whittingham took over a 12-0 Utah team off a Fiesta Bowl win and went 7-5. He recovered to eventually pound #4 Alabama in the Sugar Bowl a few year later, and lead Utah to the Pac 12 and increased relevance.

Kirk Ferentz went 1-10 in his first season. He posted 3 straight Top 10 finishes in his third, fourth, and fifth seasons.

Dabo Swinney lost to 2-10 Maryland in his first full season as HC. He went 6-7 the next year, punctuated by getting stomped in a crappy bowl by a USF team that had a losing record in the Big East. Then he rattled off eight straight 10 win seasons, 5 ACC titles, and 2 national championships.
----

This is gonna be a tough season, for sure, but we're gonna have to suck it up and look for positives. The coaches above were able to recruit in the face of tough losses. Hopefully Collins can do the same, while continuing to build a strong staff around him.
are we supposed to know who these people are?
 

Allen Koholic

Likes dick drawings.
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
24,782
You completely missed the point. That's the reason for cherry picking in this argument. Some of you act like there is no return from losing to a bad team, and that it's the be-all end-all factor for determining success of this coaching staff. He's simply stating that öööö like this does happen from time to time to good coaches and positives still come out of it. There are people acting like it's the end of the world and that we need to make a change now, after 3 damn games because they absolutely know it won't get any better.
No, I understood exactly what the point was. It was that we should just TrUsT tHe PrOcEsS because in rare handful of cases, a öööö loss wasn't a harbinger of a öööö coach.

For the record, Gary Patterson's loss to an FCS playoff team. His team went 6-6 for a "rough year". Pat Fitzgerald? Same thing. I don't know why we're talking about Schellenberger. Bobby Bowden started coaching FSU before the parents of most of our players were even born, but he inherited a crap team and made them better. Ferentz might be the only one that's comparable.

In addition, you could add events like Michigan's recruiting class after the App State loss. But that was the season that broke Lloyd Carr, so that doesn't count.
 

johncu

Dodd-Like
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,748
No, I understood exactly what the point was. It was that we should just TrUsT tHe PrOcEsS because in rare handful of cases, a öööö loss wasn't a harbinger of a öööö coach.
No, it's more than that. Most of those are Hall of Fame type coaches. All are long-term coaches who elevated their program to the next level for a sustained period without ever experiencing their initial failure again. I don't care to do it, but I'm sure you could find plenty of decent/good coaches that started off pretty badly.

Again, not saying Collins will fall into either category. I haven't seen anything to suggest that. But I've also seen enough football to know that it's too early to throw in the towel.
 

18in32

Petard Hoister
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
20,487
No, it's more than that. Most of those are Hall of Fame type coaches. All are long-term coaches who elevated their program to the next level for a sustained period without ever experiencing their initial failure again. I don't care to do it, but I'm sure you could find plenty of decent/good coaches that started off pretty badly.

Again, not saying Collins will fall into either category. I haven't seen anything to suggest that. But I've also seen enough football to know that it's too early to throw in the towel.
I am sympathetic to both sides at the moment, but I would characterize your point differently. The point is just that it's OK and not ridiculous to still have reasonable, rational hope that CGC is gonna be a good coach and lead us to good seasons.
 

ElCidBUZZingFAN

Dodd-Like
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
17,908
Did any of those shining examples lose to FCS schools in back-to-back seasons on their way to college football immortality?
 

ScionOfSouthland

Dodd-Like
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
24,311
I think CGC’s path to success will have to mimic Dabo’s. He needs to mature as a head coach and he needs to build a good supporting cast of coordinators. He isn’t a process guy like Saban or Jimbo.
 

Allen Koholic

Likes dick drawings.
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
24,782
I think CGC’s path to success will have to mimic Dabo’s. He needs to mature as a head coach and he needs to build a good supporting cast of coordinators. He isn’t a process guy like Saban or Jimbo.
Dabo can also recruit barely literate kids, throw them into a gender studies program and have the IPTAY crowd slip them bags of money. Which is a luxury Tech will never have.
 

smokey_wasp

Dodd-Like
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
5,860
Inexcusable to lose to an FCS in year one, but unforgivable to do it in later years. The former could represent an embarrassing bump in the road, depending on how things turn out. The latter always indicates a program has bottomed out, folks need to be fired, etc.

The only thing that needs to be said is that we are 3 games in. Even the most retarded SEC fanbases aren't throwing in the towel at this point in the game.
 

Diseqc

Bro, he's Reggie Bush, dude
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
40,367
Collins is on a 7 year contract. He’s going to be here for AT LEAST 5 or 6 of those years. Might as well sit back, hope he figures it out, and support him in the interim.

When the time comes to decide his fate, then we can bring out the knives or not.
 

johncu

Dodd-Like
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,748
I am sympathetic to both sides at the moment, but I would characterize your point differently. The point is just that it's OK and not ridiculous to still have reasonable, rational hope that CGC is gonna be a good coach and lead us to good seasons.
Well put.
 
Top