It is an unrealistic person that thinks an organization ...

Discussion in 'Basketball' started by GTCrew, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    In other words you have no idea.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    He knows he needs to get a stud here. Those are his words. I believe he’ll make it happen.
     
  3. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    Your answer was to bring more logic to the table. While I generally agree that logic is a good thing, that’s not exactly getting into the dirty details. :readthis:
     
  4. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    No, my answer is the fact that there has been some evidence of cheating by some teams neither establishes (a) that other programs are cheating, nor perhaps more importantly (b) that the cheating is the differentiator between good programs and bad.

    Just like with donations to improve facilities, or allocation of budget dollars to improved nutrition, or winning a bidding war to hire a more "in demand" coach, people who give a HS recruit $100k do not always get $100k worth of wins out of it.

    I'm sure there's cheating going on; there's almost nothing we can imagine humans doing that some humans somewhere aren't doing. But to suggest that cheating is the reason we've been a cellar-dweller (or at best mediocre) team for basically every season but one since the 1990's is completely unsupported.

    If you want dirty details, I do not claim to be any expert at all in what they are. My two cents, in no way claiming to be an expert about basketball recruiting, is that the GTAA has a basic choice to make: (a) whether they've given CJP a sufficient chance, and so now it's time to start looking for replacements, budgeting for the cost of firing him and hiring a replacement, etc., or (b) whether they want to give CJP more chances, and so decide how to support him with more/better assistants/recruiters, etc.

    If the latter, then for example, can GT bball piggy-back on the football brand manager's efforts somehow? Or can we get a second brand-manager to do bball stuff and promote our bball offers and commits?

    Just a scant six months ago I had no idea our football program could look like this (and more importantly, be lauded rather than mocked for it!). The GTAA needs to do some similar outside-the-box thinking to change the internal and external dynamics that have the bball program so moribund right now.

    I don't know enough about what other programs do, or about what we're allowed to do, to offer specifics. But like anything in business or any other enterprise, it takes energy, competence, interest, creativity, execution, etc. If your people aren't getting it done, you fire them – not just the head coach, but the GTAA and basketball program support staff who are responsible for the various aspects.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  5. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    Well I agree with most of that. It’s typically hard to go around and quantify the amount of cheating to get an appropriate measure of which type of cheating gets you the most bang for your buck.

    Our athletic department should at least know if we are cheating (as an institution). And, if we aren’t, it’s a little naive to dismiss other institutions paying players as a convenient excuse.

    As for Pastner, I’ve already said my piece: he knows he needs to land a great player. He’s working hard at doing that, and I want us to put the resources and energy behind him to help him be as successful as he can possibly be.
     
  6. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    It would be naive to assume that rule-breaking humans aren't rule-breaking when it comes to college basketball. I don't assume that – neither as to GT nor as to other programs.

    But it would also be naive to assume that paying players is our explanation, the secret differentiator that separates good and bad programs. That assumes (for example) that programs can cheat better than they can coach or recruit. But cheating well is hard, too. You gotta identify and persuade just the *right* players, then you gotta hide it, then you gotta do it again.

    It's probably not that easy to convince a sleazy supporter to give tens of thousands of dollars to a HS player... when he's got no enforceable contract to make the student play hard, stay eligible, avoid weed, etc. (Heck, NBA teams have a hard time doing that and they've got enforceable contracts.) The sleazy donor is thinking, what if he gets injured? What if he's a bust? There ain't no refunds in the basketball underground. Then you gotta persuade the sleazy supporter to do it *again* the next season with another roll-of-the-dice HS player, who may or may not work out. "Pimping ain't easy."

    I have no doubt there are people out there paying players (maybe even for GT, though it sure doesn't look like it)... but I dispute we have much evidence of the correlation between cheating and winning. I'm sure it's some marginal advantage (assuming you don't get caught, how could it hurt?). But just marginal – and nothing compared to the many above-board things a program does to win.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  7. smokey_wasp

    smokey_wasp Dodd-Like

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    I agree. I hate when people automatically invoke the bag man when we lose a recruit. I don't think anyone would even take a coaching job here if we were literally the only program not cheating. Pastner just needs to get it done, somehow.
     
  8. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    I disagree. There has been a lot of talk over the last couple decades about bag men in college sports. There are many players who justify getting paid and need the money (and I don’t blame them - they should be paid) and will play just as hard because they want to get to the nba.

    I admit it isn’t a difference we can calculate, but I disagree with the notion that it doesn’t make a difference.

    I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the impact paying players has on college recruiting. We pretty much agree on the rest.
     
  9. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    Pastner has said as much, and I hope and believe he will.
     
  10. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    Hey, just show me some correlation between cheating and winning, and I'll reconsider. But I've never seen strong evidence of that.
     
  11. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    https://slate.com/culture/2018/02/c...mine-coaches-claims-about-paying-players.html

    I’m not saying this article is the end all/be all, it’s just what I found in five minutes of looking. But that investigation found Louisville, Kansas and Arizona paying players.
     
  12. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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  13. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    That article nicely summarizes my argument, not yours. The headline states: "Report ties current and former Duke, UNC, NC State players to federal basketball case." Wow – that sounds bad. Let's look closer.

    What's it say about N.C. State?
    A sports agency (ASM) has a balance sheet which claims it loaned $43,500 to NCSU star Dennis Smith Jr. while he was in college. Let's assume that's true and call it a significant impermissible benefit.

    What's it say about Duke?
    An ASM agent filed an expense report seeking reimbursement of $106.36 for "Lunch c/ Wendell Carter mom" at Longhorn while Carter was still a high school student.

    What's it say about UNC?
    Tony Bradley was listed in the court documents among players "who met or had meals" with a former ASM Sports agent." That's all it says.

    So the only allegation of actually paying college players relates to an NCSU player. The Duke and UNC players are simply alleged to have met or had a meal with a sports agent.

    And how did NCSU do during the one year they had Dennis Bradley Jr. (2016-2017)? They were 4-14 in the ACC and finished 13th out of 15 teams.

    IMHO, that demonstrates precisely how weak the correlation is between allegedly improper payments to players, and program success.
     
  14. BigT

    BigT Confector

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  15. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    I don’t care. Stick your head in the sand. It’s as if you think schools/coaches are going to actively sit down for interviews and open up about how they break the rules.
     
  16. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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  17. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    “Everybody knows...”
    Does that work on the judges where you live?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  18. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    Did you read the one you linked about Sean Miller? ESPN reported there was a federal wiretap recording Miller directing a $100k payoff to a recruit. Yet he kept coaching. Why? Bc it turned out the report was crap. ESPN saw smoke, reported fire, then buried the subsequent correction. The feds weren’t even wiretapping Miller at the time of the alleged payoff. Way too often allegations are leveled by people with incentives to lie, and they just don’t hold up on inspection. Certainly there’s a different problem — which is that way too many stakeholders would rather just everyone broke the rules so there’s a conspiracy of silence effect — but to solve that again has little to do with the question whether Tech’s problem for 20 years is that we’re just too virtuous.
     
  19. BuzzLaw

    BuzzLaw where have all the average people gone

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    (1) Do you believe players are being paid or otherwise obtaining benefits for signing with teams?
    If yes, move on to question 2.
    If no, then I believe you have your head in the sand.
    (2) Do you believe getting compensation or benefits plays little to no role in which team you sign with?
    If yes, I believe you have your head in the sand.
    If no, then we are in agreement.

    I haven’t viewed the evidence. There’s certainly evidence that collegiate sports is a big money maker. We see that in tv deals, salaries, etc. If you truly believe some of that money doesn’t get to the players, then good for you. I think that’s naive, but I can respect the position that you aren’t believing it until you have the Jimmy Swaggart crying confession. And I’m not the man to bring it to you. I’ve already wasted too much time. I’m not changing your opinion and you aren’t changing mine.

    No. Tl;dr.

    And this conversation has gone to hell. As I’ve already said, I don’t disagree with many of your points. I simply believe players are getting paid, and that it makes a difference where they end up going.
     
  20. 18in32

    18in32 Petard Hoister

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    Sorry, didn't mean to offend, but dig into this and you'll see the evidence is frequently pretty flimsy. To be clear, I don't doubt some kids in college basketball receive impermissible benefits. I do doubt that kids receiving impermissible benefits has much to do with our two decades of mediocrity. Peace –