What were the actual wrongdoings that did us in?

LongforDodd

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I don't think I've actually seen it all explained somewhere what actually occured that got us in trouble? I know it wasn't for things like arranging to have a new home built for the parents of a five star running back from middle Georgia or arranging for said running back to have use of a car with a huge bird on its hood or enrolling athletes in classes whose final exam questions ask them how many quarters in a football game. But in all seriousness, what happened? I don't reall ever reading the real details. The only thing that I recall reading about was a screw-up where a SA took a chemistry class that didn't count towards his major (or something similar to that). What really happened?
 
As I understand it there were 9 (I think) SA's (out of about 300ish over a 5 year period) who didn't take enough classes, in a timely manner, towards graduation. For instance a Mgmt major might not have taken both semesters of calculus his or her freshman year.

I believe four or five of the nine or ten SAs have since graduated. What made the NCAA mad was that one was Joe Hamilton. So the NCAA thought we had too many 'big name' SAs in the group of nine. Ironically, Joe Hamilton is finishing up his degree as we speak and I understand a couple of the others, who have not yet graduated, are doing the same. Makes you wonder how come we are punished and all the SEC schools (and VT, F$U, Clemins) get away with letting their SAs take 'Individual Studies', 'Home/Consumer Economics', 'Basketweaving', etc. How many of those ever go back to finish their degrees?
 
This topic has been discussed ad nauseum but as a former GT shcolarship SA from 1984-1987, I wouldn't have known if I hadn't taken enough classes towards graduation or not. I didn't even know such a rule existed. No one ever said you HAD to take classes in a certain order. Only the class schedule had prerequisites listed under each class. For all I know I might have fallen into the violator category because I dropped at least 6 classes while in school and graduated two quarters late (an additional summer and fall). BTW, there are no requirements for the average college student to show sufficient progress towards graduation. So this is an adademic area where SA's are held to a higher standard than the average student. Also there has always been a minimum of 12 hours per semester (passed with a 2.0 gpa) and 36 hours per year required to reamin eligible. So to say that the violating SA's weren't taking enough classes towards graduation is wrong. It is that they didn't take enough of the proper ones early enough in their academic career. In orther words they took too many electives too early.

IMO, the NCAA should have make a public statement/finding with no consequences (like UGAy with Harrick). Let the embarrrassment suffice. If it happened again then sock it to Tech. The NCAA instead should be going after the real violating schools. The SEC schools, VT, etc...
 
GTYJ,
I'm not doubting your word for a minute, but seems like there MUST have been something more wrong than just that, for the way GT is being punished. I'm wondering if there is a way on the internet to read what all charges were brought against GT and also the reason for the severity of the punishment. What NCAA is doing to GT seems to be akin to gouging out the eyes of a young man simply because he took a second glance at a good looking gal.
If anyone has knowledge of how to find anymore specific and detailed charges, please share how we can access them.
TO THE GALLOWS !!!!!!!
 
Re: What were the actual wrongdoings that did us i

Yes, that's what I was asking. For some way to read the actual charges and for possibly a version in dum ol' english for someone like me to understand.
 
Re: What were the actual wrongdoings that did us i

The NCAA site has all the detail they will release on every violation at every school.
 
In a nutshell -

The athletes in question WERE taking classes, but as gtyellowjackets stated, they were taking the wrong ones at the wrong time. Like electives.

Many of the ones had changed majors and were taking classes that "counted", just not towards a degree in their new major.

I think the NCAA took that and ran with it as the School not policing the advisers and hence the "lack of institutional control" phrase was added.

Which, IMO, is BS.

Make no bones about it, we got screwed with this punishment. Losing SIX schollies per year because of this is ridiculous.

I'm happy the records stay, but they should have reduced the scholly penalty.
 
Thanks for the report...

I think what makes me most mad about the whole report is that during the six years probably 300 scholarship SA's and another 100 non scholarship SA's come throught he GTAA program. To have only 17 violations out of and estimated 400-500 SA's is not "lack of institutional control".

Second, most of the violators were in violation due to changing majors. This meant that some of their classes (that were previously accepted in their former major) were no longer accepted in their current major. That's B.S., IMO.

Third, since when was a "D" considered failing and not counting towards graduation? That's a crock (from the GT admin.), IMO.

Fourth, the majority of the violators were taking classes in the 32nd ranked business program in the country. I don't know what the Ivan Allen programs are ranked but I am sure they are equally regarded. These SA's were not taking basketweaving, Home Ec, Indivdual Studies, Fashion like they do at UGAy, VT, F$U, Clemins, and all the other SEC schools.

It's just not a level playing field...
 
Re: Thanks for the report...

At the time the Bama job came open it was widely reported that Dodd told BC to go. However, being an old guy I remember quiet well the Texas opening, Dodd refused the job and recommended D Royal who at that time was at Miss St. I know Dodd could have had the job, he at that time made a statement to the effect that he only had a one year contract with Tech at $35,000 a year and he didn't need any more than a one year and if Tech desired they could relieve him anytime they wished. So considering what was reported at the time of the Texas opening I have serious doubts that Dodd would have told BC he regretted not taking the Texas job.
 
Re: Thanks for the report...

In Dodd's luck he says that a Texas oilguy promised to make Dodd a millionaire if he came to coach at Texas. Dodd said he didn't need that kind of $. Later I think he wished he had had it.

Also Dodd almost took the Univ of Fla (becuase Alexander was dragging his heels about retiring). In 1987, the Fla job didn't look too bad either...
 
D

[ QUOTE ]
Third, since when was a "D" considered failing and not counting towards graduation? That's a crock (from the GT admin.), IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

At least since 1992. I know that in AE and ME, a "D" in an elective class will count towards graduation. A "D" in one of your core classes will not count towards graduation. In other words, if you are an AE, you can get D's in non-AE classes only.

So, if I had 15 credit-hours worth of D's in ME classes, then switched for AE to ME, those credit hours would no longer count towards graduation.
 
One more GT difference

At other schools, if you get a D or an F, and retake the course, and get a higher grade, say a B, the D or F is wiped off the slate. At GT, the D or F is still factored into the GPA. This has been a sore point between at least some at the GTAA and the Hill, since again, this affects eligibility under NCAA rules.

Tech is playing under a different set of academic rules than any other school. It is not possible to play at an elite level with GT's different rules, no matter what some fans seem to believe.
 
Re: One more GT difference

[ QUOTE ]
...Tech is playing under a different set of academic rules than any other school. It is not possible to play at an elite level with GT's different rules...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what really pisses me off about the ruling. The dumb asses in the NCAA cannot or would not make an intelligent judgment call and differentiate Tech from the Alabama's, FSU's, USC's, etc who let their SA's get away with qualifying courses courses and majors such as ball room dancing, lesisure activities managment, etc. Our case was mismanaged by our people from the very beginning and thank goodness one of them is already gone. I hope Rad investigates this case thoroughly and takes appropiate action. In my mind, the guy who handled our appeal is too naieve and "braineless" to deal with the sef-serving NCAA idiots.
 
I haven't read the decisions recently but I think what really killed us was that we made the mistakes, someone found out and reported us, and then we made similar mistakes over and over again after that. Like it or not, that is lack of control over your program.

Yes, I want to believe that the NCAA would recognize how we normally act and make a good judgement, but they can't always do that. Decisions they pass down will be used by the next guy.

We also got killed by our arrogance including not bothering taking the NCAA course on the subject.

Lastly, we got killed by our naievety. We didn't feel we were guilty and acted accordingly. We should have hired a lawyer from Kansas immediately but didn't do that until it was too late.

And remember something. Other schools bark at us just like we whine about them. "How could Georgia Tech win four national championships without cheating?" Trust me, it has been said before. Or how about the MIT's of the world questioning how we could possibly be like them and still play Div 1A football. My point is that there are always jealous or doubting people outside our own box.
 
Listen folks, this is what REALLY happened.

What happened is you have a guy (Roper) who was in charge of overseeing eligiblity with all athletes. This guy had held the position for 30 some odd years. In the mid 90's the NCAA made some rule changes regarding eligible athletes. Roper, who thought he didn't need to go to these conferences, because you basically "cannot teach an old dog, new tricks".

Well that burned us, because he kept doing things the same old way. What happened was you had certain athletes that were taking courses that were not going towards their major. At ANY OTHER university, this is not a problem, because athletes do not have to declare until they are a junior. At Tech, however, you MUST declare your intentions your freshman year. So it was ultimately a rule that screwed GT a little more than other schools. Also, at Tech, a D cannot count as credit towards a major in some classes, whereas at other schools it can. So in our situation, we were a very unique case.

Anyway, so sometime around 2003 the GTAA hire this schmuck of a shithead, Shane Olivett, who had been run out of dodge by every school he's worked for (including South Carolina) because he's one of these guys who constantly wants to prove himself as great and will do so above following protocal. He's one of these unmanagable types, who wants to be recognized than do the right job. He uncovers the blunder that Tech had been doing for years in evaluating their own elgiblity of players.

Now this is where I have heard two versions of the story and from a few different sources.
a.) I have heard this guy brought the allegations to Braine and that Braine stymied him and told him to keep it quiet and was never planning to do anything about it. He was basically told to shut the hell up or else. So Olivett finked on GT and the sameday Braine in a fluster announces that GT is "self-reporting" the infractions. This is the version I don't believe.

b.) He brought the case to Dave Braine, Dave talked to Clough about it. At the time, both were unsure that a violation had occurred. They immediately went back to Roper who held the responsiblity of this stuff over Olivett. Roper was completely befuddled. He did his fact checking because ultimately he did not want to be responsible for the mess. Yet, unfortunately, a man who had served GT so long, turned out to serve GT very badly during this time as he was at fault, and negligent to boot. Apparently Roper felt just unbelievablably awful about the whole thing, and he stepped down from his position which basically admitted to Braine and Co. that they were indeed guilty. At this point I think Braine and Clough, and maybe a couple of other of people knew about it outside of Olivett. Roper "retires", and so the Brain trust starts looking into the situation, probably trying to figure out how they were going to announce, what they were going to announce, and figure out what they needed to be immediately ready for when dealing with the NCAA.

It was about this time that Olivett thought that he had been removed from the situation, and that he was not happy about his un-involvement. So he dials up the old NCAA (who he previously worked for I think) and starts blabbing the details and accusing GT of a coverup. This is when Braine looking to do damage control "self reports" the incident.

Now I am no fan of Braine. He continuously mismanaged the GTAA, was irresponsible, made poor hires, and even poorer decisions. But I had heard that we may be reporting violations prior to the violations coming out, and based on everyone that I have ever talked to, and what I have pieced together just by using sheer logic, there was never a situation of a cover-up.

Now this shithead Olivett is suing the GTAA for wrongful termination, because after the dust had settled, here you had a guy who in MOST peoples opinions in the GTAA didn't follow protocal. Frankly, I think this guy is bogus. But then again, I also think Braine handled the situation like a complete jackass. I could write a character study on Dave Braine for my MBA about how not to manage an organization and would have enough material to put it in a hard bound book.

Call it a comedy of errors and a page study out of poor communication, but cover-up? If myself and several others had heard about this prior to it coming to light, then does that reek of cover-up? Give me a break. Use common sense. Of course, there are a couple of fonts who will argue with me til the day is long, because apparently they knew Olivett or some cohort of his and are hell bent on believing that Dave Braine was an evil man.

Dave Braine is a lot of things, yes. Evil is not one of them. Undermining is not one of them. (personally I don't think he's that smart to be undermining). Incompetent... YES. Negligent... YES. Not Strategic... YES. Terrible Manager... YES!

Bottom line, the punishment rendered by the NCAA for "lack of institutional control" was more of a punishment for our complete idiocy in reporting the violations and not so much the negligence in not evaluating eligiblity the right way. Roper Screwed us... Dave Braine buried the hatchet in our backs when he completely bungled the entire reporting procedures, and Olivett was the ignitor of the events.

If we had handled this properly the first time, we probably would be looking at a deduction of 2 scholly's instead of 6. But thanks to Braine, he made up for the harsh verdict(and I'll will tell anyone who will listen "I TOLD YOU SO", because I've been calling out his terrible management for years, prior to when it was the "in thing" to do).

Anyway, that's the deal. Hope that sheds the light on your questions. Our punishment wasn't a matter of what we did wrong. It was what we did wrong after the fact that justified the severity of the punishment. If anyone thinks that Dave Braine was a good AD for Tech... you must have no other experience than working with morons.
 
Re: Listen folks, this is what REALLY happened.

Wow.
[ QUOTE ]
personally I don't think he's that smart to be undermining

[/ QUOTE ] I think many would agree with that.
 
Re: Listen folks, this is what REALLY happened.

Great job BOR. Best post I've ever read about the probabation. I always thought something more happenned than just playing ineligible athletes, but I never bought the whole evil Clough/Braine conspiracy theory (that Buzzoff predictably jumped on). I mean, could the situation have been handled any worse without the GTAA actually being evil?

I think this 2005-2006 offseason will be looked at as the some of the best hiring changes in the history of Tech. The outing of Dave Braine and Dave Wilson and the beginning of Rads and a couple very good football assistents.
 
Re: Listen folks, this is what REALLY happened.

Good summary BOR. Braine walked into the very beautiful situation left behind by Homer Rice, the Saviour of Tech athletics, and Braine just about took it down. You are correct--you could write a text book on how not to manage an organization based on the Braine example. Of course, Clough hired him (VT connections) and was reponsible for him. Clough gets no pass from me, either.
 
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