This is a big week and clearly...

[GiveEmHellJackets]

Our inability to forecast these games is fueling the inferno of our paranoia to the point where we have become craven neanderthals bowing to the shadows of superstition and speculation dancing on the wall of our football caves. We are so perplexed by their motions that we are uprooted from our common understanding of the world around us.

All quarterbacks are imperfect copies of Vad Lee. However, shuffling Vad in and out of the game causes conflict among the Goon Squad; they lose their capacity for reason and understanding and instead rely on belief and conjecture. What I'm saying here is that we have a divided line.

 

[GEETEELEE]

All quarterbacks are imperfect copies of Vad Lee. However, shuffling Vad in and out of the game causes conflict among the Goon Squad; they lose their capacity for reason and understanding and instead rely on belief and conjecture. What I'm saying here is that we have a divided line.

 

[LegendaryGT]

All quarterbacks are imperfect copies of Vad Lee. However, shuffling Vad in and out of the game causes conflict among the Goon Squad; they lose their capacity for reason and understanding and instead rely on belief and conjecture. What I'm saying here is that we have a divided line.

Glad at least two somebodies got it.

 

[gtzulu]

Explain to me this hard headed conspiracy theory. Vad Lee is CPJ's recruit - its not like he's a step child.

Are you saying that CPJ is stubborn because he does not want to throw this season away in order to throw Vad Lee into action?

This season is already thrown away. There is only one objective left: beating Georgia. With Vad, we may have a shot at beating Georgia. With Vad + Tevin, we may have a shot at beating Georgia. With Tevin, we have no shot at beating Georgia.

Stubborn because he refuses to scrap our run based triple option mid-season to capitalize on our stud backup QB, stacked wide receiving corps, and stellar pass protecting offensive line?

Stubborn because we are not gaining a single thing by playing Tevin, and are still losing games on top of it.

It seems that you have blind faith in Vad Lee.

No. More like I have zero faith in Tevin.

New conspiracy theory: CPJ is holding Vad Lee back so he and Justin Thomas will have nearly the same experience going into the off-season QB competition.

Not likely. More likely is that CPJ keeps incorrectly thinking that Tevin is about to win us games that Vad can't.

Were you part of the fanbase that expected Taylor Bennett to start over Reggie?

Most assuredly. Not because I thought Taylor Bennett was any good. It's because I knew how bad Reggie was.

Use the quote tag weirdo

 

[GT1992]

Of course they do, and I recognize that we were thin, but the second defensive series was before the short Vad drive. As thin as we want to be, we should absolutely be able to play more than 4 plays (the length of the first defensive series) before becoming winded. I point out the second series because that's when it all broke down, IMO. The short turnaround on the Tevin/Waller fumbled pass to the next series may have compounded it, but the problem was in full swing when we let them go 75 yards in 12 plays for a TD essentially at the very beginning of the game. At no point in that drive did we have any kind of defensive presence, no sacks, no TFL, we let them convert 2 3rds and a 4th and complete 3 passes for 10+ yards while holding the ball for 5+ minutes.

The short turnaround didn't really mean much in the face of that because the next series they played was MTSU going 4 plays for -2 yards and then missing a field goal. They put an additional 1:19 on the clock. Sounds like they weren't fatigued but if you watched they ran on us to a 3rd and 1 and then decided to drop back and pass for some weird reason and drew an intentional grounding call. They could have and they should have punched it in there and scored 56 that game. But they didn't really boss us around there any more than they bossed us around on the previous drive. That trend was present from the beginning.

And all that was before Vad got the ball. Tevin's offense had the ball for 2:42 total PT over 2 drives totaling 7 plays at that point, and Vad's drive lasted for 2:58 over 5 plays. Who was turning it over faster? Some might also say Vad didn't really have a chance that drive anyway because on 3rd and 7 we called a really bad play. We threw a short pass to Laskey but it wasn't ever in the cards and he got clobbered for a loss.

Then we let them score again lightning fast (Cunningham's first 60 yard rush of the evening), after the longest break they'd had yet, and fumbled the KO to get them right back on the field. At this point we were already in full blown defensive uselessness, and I don't feel like it's even conceivable to lay the blame for that at Vad's feet, or even at CPJ's proxy feet for putting Vad in for a series.

Our next drive after that was a death march, too, so they had plenty of time on the bench to catch their breath, but we still played like ass when our defense went back on the field. I just don't see any point in the game where I can call the defense any better than any other point in the game. That game was a total disaster.



Sure, why not, but that doesn't have anything to do with Vad Lee. I'm not saying motivation wasn't a problem, it's fairly obvious that it was, I'm just contending that it had very little if anything to do with Vad's presence on the field in the third series.



Given what we know now, it was an irrelevant move. I wouldn't have called the offense clicking before Lee's series, we had one TD and one fumbled pass, and we'd only run 7 plays for less than 3 minutes of PT. Our offense had barely been on the field. I really wouldn't have called it clicking afterwards either. We had one good death march, then a freaky 9 play 45 yard TD drive that wasn't nearly as good as the 5 ypp that implies. They almost stopped us on the goal line, everyone had shades of Miami in their head when Tevin went for it on the 1 and failed to get any yardage again; thankfully that play was only 2nd down. Then we had 7 drives in the 2nd half and they went like this: punt, fumble, downs, TD, INT, downs, half. We still put up decent yardage, but clicking we were not, IMO.

Wasn't relevant anyway. We should not have to put up 60 points just to WIN against MTSU. On this, I'm sure we all agree.

We win the game if we go on a TD drive on the third possession. MTSU was given hope because CPJ did not put the pedal to metal. Why do you not understand that his "experiment" killed the defense. You apparently have never played the game. They gave up a long drive and were put back onto the field twice without being able to reorganize. I've been there. CPJ's crappy attitude about defense also hurts us. How many former players have to tell you something before you get the point. Go laugh your ass off, but you simply aren't getting the point.

This defense is not as bad as you think, but when CPJ screws them over with his decisions, it is on him.

 

[LegendaryGT]

We win the game if we go on a TD drive on the third possession. MTSU was given hope because CPJ did not put the pedal to metal. Why do you not understand that his "experiment" killed the defense. You apparently have never played the game. They gave up a long drive and were put back onto the field twice without being able to reorganize. I've been there. CPJ's crappy attitude about defense also hurts us. How many former players have to tell you something before you get the point. Go laugh your ass off, but you simply aren't getting the point.

This defense is not as bad as you think, but when CPJ screws them over with his decisions, it is on him.

The dynamics of teamwork performance and emotion are not unique to the game of football. Next time you have to defend a pass and a completion means somebody might die you let me know. I've been there. I've taken counter-RCIED equipment off of vehicles that Marines died in. I stood with a whole company of Marines and watched a friend of mine with a broken skull from an IED strike get loaded into a medical rescue helicopter and I never saw him again. You can't really compare the experience of playing a game to that, but those were the emotional setbacks that my team had to deal with - and we kept executing no matter what. Forgive me if I just don't seem to understand when people give up because they are losing a freaking game.

If you'd like to discuss the rest of the post you quoted and maybe address the things I pointed out that indicate the defense was performing poorly regardless of Vad's involvement, we can have a conversation. If you'd like to continue to insist that I just don't understand how emotions affect a team, I have nothing further to say to you on this subject.

 

[daBuzz]

We win the game if we go on a TD drive on the third possession. MTSU was given hope because CPJ did not put the pedal to metal. Why do you not understand that his "experiment" killed the defense. You apparently have never played the game. They gave up a long drive and were put back onto the field twice without being able to reorganize. I've been there. CPJ's crappy attitude about defense also hurts us. How many former players have to tell you something before you get the point. Go laugh your ass off, but you simply aren't getting the point.

This defense is not as bad as you think, but when CPJ screws them over with his decisions, it is on him.

Congratulations. Just when I think you couldn't post something dumber than the other crap you have been posting, you top it all off.

Please do yourself a favor and cancel your internet subscription.

"We win the game if we score on the 3rd possession"? WTF are you smoking?

How about this? We're down 35-28 with just over 8 minutes to go in the game and cause one of the few punts in the game and get the ball back. Tevin underthrows a receiver who was TWELVE YARDS behind his defender. The ball is thus intercepted and run back to our 13 yard line, where MTSU promptly scores and takes a 2 TD lead.

Is Vad responsible for Tevin's underthrow on that one? Because it seems to me that was the perfect time for SuperTevin or whoever the f**k that guy is you've been describing to take us on one of his miraculous shoulders down the field to the promised land and victory!

Oh crap...my bad....the interception and run back were caused by Tevin having been substituted for 2 quarters prior on one series.

 

[GT1992]

Congratulations. Just when I think you couldn't post something dumber than the other crap you have been posting, you top it all off.

Please do yourself a favor and cancel your internet subscription.

"We win the game if we score on the 3rd possession"? WTF are you smoking?

How about this? We're down 35-28 with just over 8 minutes to go in the game and cause one of the few punts in the game and get the ball back. Tevin underthrows a receiver who was TWELVE YARDS behind his defender. The ball is thus intercepted and run back to our 13 yard line, where MTSU promptly scores and takes a 2 TD lead.

Is Vad responsible for Tevin's underthrow on that one? Because it seems to me that was the perfect time for SuperTevin or whoever the f**k that guy is you've been describing to take us on one of his miraculous shoulders down the field to the promised land and victory!

Oh crap...my bad....the interception and run back were caused by Tevin having been substituted for 2 quarters prior on one series.

No, you post something even dumber. Vad's 5 and out put the defense on the field for the vast majority of the first quarter, which hurts them later on in the game. It also doesn't allow for adjustments which are more difficult since the architect of the D is up in the booth instead of his usual place on the sideline. I'm talking about the effect that had on the defense in a critical time. If we get the lead, MTSU doesn't have hope. It feeds on itself. Remember how we would just destroy a team with a Nesbitt death march? By the same token, the momentum of the stop to force a missed field goal and a scoring drive to give us the lead would have dramatically changed the game.

The second half (and this addresses TIA's post also) was a result of having to continually battle back. If we are ahead, the play calling is significantly different. We're trying for death marches, not quick scores. Three yards and a cloud of dust, resting the defense and keeping what they became off the field. Tevin simply isn't passing the ball. What part don't you get dumbass?

 

[gtfan1147]

I just re-watched the MTSU game. Our QB, receivers and blocking looked far worse on film than in person. We're ----ed.

 

[GT1992]

The dynamics of teamwork performance and emotion are not unique to the game of football. Next time you have to defend a pass and a completion means somebody might die you let me know. I've been there. I've taken counter-RCIED equipment off of vehicles that Marines died in. I stood with a whole company of Marines and watched a friend of mine with a broken skull from an IED strike get loaded into a medical rescue helicopter and I never saw him again. You can't really compare the experience of playing a game to that, but those were the emotional setbacks that my team had to deal with - and we kept executing no matter what. Forgive me if I just don't seem to understand when people give up because they are losing a freaking game.

If you'd like to discuss the rest of the post you quoted and maybe address the things I pointed out that indicate the defense was performing poorly regardless of Vad's involvement, we can have a conversation. If you'd like to continue to insist that I just don't understand how emotions affect a team, I have nothing further to say to you on this subject.

Players aren't in the same position or trained the same as the military. We were also short handed and could have used more coaching on the sideline.

You also tried to point to the second half drives where we had already lost the momentum when I was referencing the first half. I never argued that the defense was good, just that Groh's hands were tied and CPJ made decisions that put more pressure on them, like going five and out. Did you bother to look at the first half drives? TD, Fumble, Vad Lee short possession and punt, TD, TD. To say that the offense wasn't moving the ball until Lee came in or after is ignoring facts. We weren't putting the boot down on them. As much as I hate the military analogy, we could have done the same in Iraq and Afghanistan and used better rules of engagement early on that possibly could have saved your friend, but that's a discussion for a different place. Fight club.

If we get up, which we could have when Lee was inserted and CPJ said in his press conference that Lee still makes lots of mistakes, we change the entire tenor of the game. We don't put a flawed defense, from both a numbers and experience side, back on the field. See all the balls references, which I believe you agreed with. It was obvious that the defense wasn't at full strength and CPJ could have protected them, but chose not to by interupting an offense that was moving the ball (see first half drives).

TIA, I feel sorry for your losses and we usually agree. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the military and utmost disrespect for the majority of politicians who put them in horrible situations. I'll buy you a beer in Shreveport. We'll be at the Applebees.

 

[daBuzz]

No, you post something even dumber. Vad's 5 and out put the defense on the field for the vast majority of the first quarter, which hurts them later on in the game. It also doesn't allow for adjustments which are more difficult since the architect of the D is up in the booth instead of his usual place on the sideline. I'm talking about the effect that had on the defense in a critical time. If we get the lead, MTSU doesn't have hope. It feeds on itself. Remember how we would just destroy a team with a Nesbitt death march? By the same token, the momentum of the stop to force a missed field goal and a scoring drive to give us the lead would have dramatically changed the game.

The second half (and this addresses TIA's post also) was a result of having to continually battle back. If we are ahead, the play calling is significantly different. We're trying for death marches, not quick scores. Three yards and a cloud of dust, resting the defense and keeping what they became off the field. Tevin simply isn't passing the ball. What part don't you get dumbass?

LOL, could you do me a favor and keep posting? This stuff is AWESOMELY HILARIOUS.

We should overlook Tevin's interception and the fumbled pitch (both of which resulted in touchdowns, by the way) and blame the loss on Vad not taking us to a TD in the one series he got in the game.

And you didn't answer my question. Did Vad's 5-and-out cause Tevin to have an arm weaker than my little sister? (I don't have a little sister...that's the point...no arm).

 

[GT1992]

LOL, could you do me a favor and keep posting? This stuff is AWESOMELY HILARIOUS.

We should overlook Tevin's interception and the fumbled pitch (both of which resulted in touchdowns, by the way) and blame the loss on Vad not taking us to a TD in the one series he got in the game.

And you didn't answer my question. Did Vad's 5-and-out cause Tevin to have an arm weaker than my little sister? (I don't have a little sister...that's the point...no arm).

Except I never blamed Vad, dumbass. I put it squarely on the shoulders of a coach who proclaims that Tevin gives us the best chance and then chose to not put our best chance on the field in a tied ballgame. Morons like you are so busy drooling over Vad Lee that they are clueless, which is funny.

You also like to ignore the fact that it is a much different game when you're playing with a lead. Tevin wouldn't have been passing short in an attempt to catch up. We would have kept it more on the ground and their defense would have worn down instead of ours. But keep posting your stupidity.

 

[DressCheeseSideSeaboard]

:pop:

 

[GaTechJack]

Reading posts about what's wrong, or right, with this football program is truly entertaining! After all the debates, and hooping & hollering, the only thing that really matters at the end is what happens on the field! Hopefully we will see improvement today, but if not, we will probably hear the same explanations! My only question, "Is the team getting better as the season progresses, staying about the same, or getting worse?" That is what coaching is supposed to be all about!

 

[LegendaryGT]

You also tried to point to the second half drives where we had already lost the momentum when I was referencing the first half. I never argued that the defense was good, just that Groh's hands were tied and CPJ made decisions that put more pressure on them, like going five and out. Did you bother to look at the first half drives? TD, Fumble, Vad Lee short possession and punt, TD, TD. To say that the offense wasn't moving the ball until Lee came in or after is ignoring facts. We weren't putting the boot down on them.

I did bother to look at the first half drives, but the event in question is Vad's possession, not the half. The possessions before Vad accounted for a total of 60 yards of offense, we had just barely been on the field. It's not an accurate practice to evaluate whether our offense is truly clicking at that point because that's the resolution where results can be wildly skewed by a lot of factors, including luck, that won't be signals in the long run. Your point about five and out is kind of silly, because both of Tevin's drives prior to that were 5 or fewer plays and took less total time, as I've been saying. The longest turnaround the defense had to that point was when Vad was in. It wasn't a short possession. At that time it was the longest possession we'd had.

I also alread addressed the three TD drives in the first half in my previous posts. We had two that started around or across midfield, and one of those they almost stopped us on the goal line. Here's a snippet from the play by play report from our 6th series (9 plays for 45 yards, TD)

(2nd and 13) Washington, T. pass incomplete to Washington, T..

After we converted 3rd and 13, MTSU drew a facemasking penalty to give us our next first down and put us on the 5 yard line, where it took us all 3 plays to get in. If you take out the 18 yard desperation pass to Orwin, and the facemasking penalty (which the official stats do count as team yardage on the drive) we went 22 yards with 8 other plays (a blistering pace of 2.275 yards per play). Godhigh had 2 rushes that drive for 7 and 9, leaving 8 yards for 6 other plays. We had 6 plays on a 9 play drive that essentially got nothing at all done. We spent 66% of that drive going nowhere. That was an ugly, clunky drive.

Even our fifth series, the one "good" touchdown, we had to convert a 4th down to get.

I also never said we weren't moving the ball. That's dumb, we had 4 drives of 60+ yards. I said we weren't clicking, because a team that is moving the ball should be able to turn more than 1/4 of those into TDs (or at least points). All of our other TDs came on short fields. It also shouldn't have to attempt (and fail) to convert 2 4th downs against a sun belt team.

Also, why aren't we focusing on Snoddy's fumble here, if we're looking at single demoralizing plays and quick defensive turnarounds? After the Vad drive, they death marched on us and Snoddy fumbled the resulting kickoff to put the defense right back on the field at our 32. Don't you think that's more demoralizing than subbing a QB who CPJ has been saying is going to gradually see more PT anyway against what is supposed to be an easy opponent?

If we get up, which we could have when Lee was inserted and CPJ said in his press conference that Lee still makes lots of mistakes, we change the entire tenor of the game. We don't put a flawed defense, from both a numbers and experience side, back on the field. See all the balls references, which I believe you agreed with. It was obvious that the defense wasn't at full strength and CPJ could have protected them, but chose not to by interupting an offense that was moving the ball (see first half drives).

What are you trying to say? Your message is all over the place now. Our defense wasn't capable of defending MTSU because it is young and we had injured starters? 'Not being at full strength' is such a horrible misattribution of the issue - we only made them punt twice (both times in the second half, oddly enough). We're not playing FSU here. They beat us 3 points worse than they beat 0-4 Memphis of C-USA for crying out loud. Here's their drive chart against McNeese St of the Southland Conference (S L C!! S L C!!!)

There is no conditioning, morale, momentum, or depth excuse for that. The defense did not get up for this game. Period. I find all these contrivances intended to place the blame on a quarterback substitution preposterous and irrelevant because even if that were somehow to be the case, it's the same problem. A defense that needs the offense to score on every drive to keep them motivated is not motivated, and is looking for excuses to quit.

I refuse to accept any theory that even insinuates we fielded a defense that needed the offense to win the game because they weren't capable of getting stops. That is possibly even more absurd than the cult of Vad's Folly. 1-4 Florida Atlantic (of the Sun Belt) with it's lone 7-3 win over 2-3 FCS outfit Wagner got stops against MTSU. We can get stops. We don't have the worlds most athletic roster, but we have several times the athleticism you'll find on any of the 3 non-BCS league and non-FBS teams that outperformed us against MTSU.

 

[GiveEmHellJackets]

Figures that one of the people who did get it is a REPUBLICan. :hsugh:

Glad at least two somebodies got it.

I really want BuzzCzar to see my previous post; he would appreciate it, being a wordplay dork.

 

[GT1992]

Also, why aren't we focusing on Snoddy's fumble here, if we're looking at single demoralizing plays and quick defensive turnarounds? After the Vad drive, they death marched on us and Snoddy fumbled the resulting kickoff to put the defense right back on the field at our 32. Don't you think that's more demoralizing than subbing a QB who CPJ has been saying is going to gradually see more PT anyway against what is supposed to be an easy opponent?


What are you trying to say? Your message is all over the place now. Our defense wasn't capable of defending MTSU because it is young and we had injured starters? 'Not being at full strength' is such a horrible misattribution of the issue - we only made them punt twice (both times in the second half, oddly enough). There is no conditioning, morale, momentum, or depth excuse for that. The defense did not get up for this game. Period. I find all these contrivances intended to place the blame on a quarterback substitution preposterous and irrelevant because even if that were somehow to be the case, it's the same problem. A defense that needs the offense to score on every drive to keep them motivated is not motivated, and is looking for excuses to quit.

I refuse to accept any theory that even insinuates we fielded a defense that needed the offense to win the game because they weren't capable of getting stops. That is possibly even more absurd than the cult of Vad's Folly. 1-4 Florida Atlantic (of the Sun Belt) with it's lone 7-3 win over 2-3 FCS outfit Wagner got stops against MTSU. We can get stops. We don't have the worlds most athletic roster, but we have several times the athleticism you'll find on any of the 3 non-BCS league and non-FBS teams that outperformed us against MTSU.

I deleted some to keep it shorter. The momentum went to them at that point in the game. I've not defended the defense, only pointed out that we needed to protect them in this game. TD, fumble, Vad, TD, TD shows that the offense could have taken over the game, as they could have in the second half. The defense was atrocious. It might have been better without the turnovers and in real time, a dud drive where the clock kept moving. I place this on CPJ's head.

I do agree our defense should have stopped a Sun Belt team. I think that CPJ ushering Groh off the field was a big mistake as was putting Lee into the game in a crucial situation. We gave them hope instead of kicking them in the ass. Meanwhile, even according to your own assessment, the defense gave up after the first quarter. Is that not significant to you that it occurred after the failure of the offense?

Snoddy's fumble was horrible also and contributed to the downfall. I don't know why the coaching staff doesn't tell them if the ball is going into the endzone, don't return it. That's been a constant problem for several years. With the new rules, it simply doesn't make sense the vast majority of the time.

 

[LegendaryGT]

TD, fumble, Vad, TD, TD shows that the offense could have taken over the game, as they could have in the second half.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I've addressed this several times above.

Meanwhile, even according to your own assessment, the defense gave up after the first quarter. Is that not significant to you that it occurred after the failure of the offense?

Not an accurate evaluation of my assessment. Nowhere did I say they gave up after the first quarter. I specifically sated the middle of the first quarter in one post above but my feeling is really that they didn't even show up for this game.

As for the significance of things, correlation does not imply causation. Pirates, global warming, etc. I don't think it's very significant at all, it's actually just a random coincidence with minor ramifications in the big picture. That's sort of the basis of the discussion we're having.

Snoddy's fumble was horrible also and contributed to the downfall. I don't know why the coaching staff doesn't tell them if the ball is going into the endzone, don't return it. That's been a constant problem for several years. With the new rules, it simply doesn't make sense the vast majority of the time.

Agreed. I have been saying this since game one, when you can take the touchback, you do, unless you really need to break the game. It saves you work and gets you just as far as you'd otherwise go. It's also really really hard to fumble a touchback.

 

[GT1992]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I've addressed this several times above.



Not an accurate evaluation of my assessment. Nowhere did I say they gave up after the first quarter. I specifically sated the middle of the first quarter in one post above but my feeling is really that they didn't even show up for this game.

As for the significance of things, correlation does not imply causation. Pirates, global warming, etc. I don't think it's very significant at all, it's actually just a random coincidence with minor ramifications in the big picture. That's sort of the basis of the discussion we're having.



Agreed. I have been saying this since game one, when you can take the touchback, you do, unless you really need to break the game. It saves you work and gets you just as far as you'd otherwise go. It's also really really hard to fumble a touchback.

The defense was unprepared and lost, no question. Leaving them on the field only exasparated the problem. Putting in Vad before establishing a lead and Snoddy's fumble made it even worse. The only one of those situations that in game coaching could correct was putting in Lee. The other thing that could have been changed was not sending Groh, who has been on the sidelines for more than a decade, to the box. Both of which were tactical errors on CPJ's part.

The middle of the first quarter was when the D actually stopped them for a missed field goal.