Run-N-Shoot....

I'll address the technical and official part of the concerns. What I am going to explain is the rule book definition, it's NOT necessarily the STATISTICS or BOOKKEEPING definition. I am not sure about that part.

NCAA rulebook separates passes into two groups:
Forward Pass: Any pass where the receiver contacts the ball closer to the opponent's end zone than the passer.
Backward Pass: This is defined as EVERYTHING ELSE than a forward pass in the rule book.

As far as classification as a forward or backward pass, the rule book does not care about the neutral zone. Now, of course, any pass beyond the neutral zone is a ILLEGAL forward pass.

So, with those rules in hand, a forward pitch is a forward pass OFFICIALLY. Therefore if it hits the ground it's not a fumble.

The rules are here:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football_Rulesadc982b5-03fb-4e27-828c-c2d26b95e6c1.pdf
 
I love reading that site, because that guy's posts are probably the most informative and intelligent things about college football on the internet.

I think we'll need to include the run and shoot at some point next season, especially against teams like UNC. UNC did a fairly good job of defending against us. Any team with a defense full of smart, disciplined guys will do better then a team like Miami or FSU that relies on speed and raw talent as a defense. There will be times when we will not be able to run the ball, and having a smart reliable passing option will open the game up for us. It will also, as pointed out, give us a great counter play and really make some DC's hate life.

If you read a few posts lower, there's also a great post about something Tom Osborne said, and how it relates to Paul Johnson's offense, which is what we really should call this.
 
So here's a question for you. When he pitches forward, while they're still in the backfield, is that a pitch (rush) or a screen pass?
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Technically it's a completed pass and all yards on the play go towards passing yards. I'm not sure statisticians really pay much attention to the angle of the lateral unless it's fumbled and should be ruled incomplete, though. I imagine we probably had a lot of pitches this year that would technically fall under the definition of a 'pass' that went towards our rushing total. Doesn't really bother me, I rather like having a zillion rushing yards show up on our stat line.
 
beej67 said:
Technically it's a completed pass and all yards on the play go towards passing yards. I'm not sure statisticians really pay much attention to the angle of the lateral unless it's fumbled and should be ruled incomplete, though. I imagine we probably had a lot of pitches this year that would technically fall under the definition of a 'pass' that went towards our rushing total. Doesn't really bother me, I rather like having a zillion rushing yards show up on our stat line.
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an interesting note from NCAA playbook is 'when in doubt about the classification of the play, it is a forward pass'
 
so we could become an extremely balanced-looking team, since many of the outside pitches are indeed forward.

if we really think about pushing Nesbitt (prob next yr) for any awards, we should discuss this with the official scorekeepers of each game, especially the "when in doubt" portion

if we did that, and they started counting them as passing yards, then i bet there would soon be some kind of rule adjustment.
 
if we really think about pushing Nesbitt (prob next yr) for any awards, we should discuss this with the official scorekeepers of each game, especially the "when in doubt" portion
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We have a better shot of getting Dwyer those kinds of awards, so I'd rather see the yards to towards rushing.
 
I've watch CPJ's teams for over 20 years. I stated before the season that the most important position on CPJ's team is the QB. If the QB can run, read defenses, make decisions fast, and THROW well, the offense is virtually impossible to stop. I really enjoy seeing the fake to the B-back, a quick three step drop, and pass across the line to the A-back running down the seam behind the LB's.
20-30 yards every time.:bowdown:

What I would like to see from JN is to put the ball in JD's stomach on all plays JD runs up the middle. Sometimes it seems he has already determined not to allow JD the ball although the dive is there and therefore doesn't sell the dive to the defense. Not trying to be critical as he has picked up the offense rather well.

BTW- I believe there is a connection between CPJ and Mouse Davis. To what extent I'm not sure.
 
BuzzCzar said:
same question i asked, but noone has responded

i think in the NFL if the forward pitch is caught behind the line, it is a rushing play but not if it is caught past the LOS. or maybe that is college, i am not sure as to the rule right now
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You can pass the ball forward with your patootie if its behind the LOS, and it is a forward pass. A run is a keeper, handoff or a lateral of any type. The confusing one is a lateral after pass completion. I believe that goes as a pass completion for x yards, and a run for y yards... or does it?
 
stinger78 said:
You can pass the ball forward with your patootie if its behind the LOS, and it is a forward pass. A run is a keeper, handoff or a lateral of any type. The confusing one is a lateral after pass completion. I believe that goes as a pass completion for x yards, and a run for y yards... or does it?
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stinger, the thing that confuses me is the stats part. I know of at least 2 situations this year when Josh pitched it forward while still behind the LOS and both went as rushing attempts. On both, the RB was also behind the line. So if he had dropped it, would it have been a fumble or an incomplete pass? Or is it totally random since we have ACC officials?
 
ncjacket, it can never be a fumble if it was a pitch forward.....in ANY scenario.

That's basic football fundamentals.

C'mon, man!
 
i think ncjacket has a point on the officials. they don't have enough SA to pick up on those details. i imagine if we had a forward pitch that was dropped it'd be ruled a fumble on the field and would have to be reviewed, probably on a CPJ challenge cause the booth judges don't seem to be very aware either. with all this said, i'm not sure that as many of our pitches are forward as some think. i mean think about it, if the pitch is forward, then it's harder on the pitch man to catch it because he has to turn his head and body more.
 
back on the 'shoot front...it's funny that CPJ barely mentions passing more and everybody is like, "don't expect Georgia Tech to look like Texas Tech" or something to that effect. great analysis.
 
I know of at least 2 situations this year when Josh pitched it forward while still behind the LOS and both went as rushing attempts.
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That doesn't surprise me at all, but according to the letter of the law, those should have went down as passing yards instead of rushing yards.

Nobody really pays attention to whether a lateral is slightly forward unless it's fumbled, least of all the statistician guy.

So if he had dropped it, would it have been a fumble or an incomplete pass?
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By the letter of the law, if he dropped it before it was ever controlled, it'd be an incomplete pass, although ACC officials do suck.
 
KHBee said:
ncjacket, it can never be a fumble if it was a pitch forward.....in ANY scenario.

That's basic football fundamentals.

C'mon, man!
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Well, if it goes in the books as a rushing attempt, why would you think the refs would call it an incomplete pass?
 
I think on an option play if the pitch is any where near being a lateral the statisticians will err on the side of calling it a run. It will only be a drastic forward pitch that gets labeled a pass. When a fumble occurs the refs have to get involved and determine of it was a pass or lateral, and when close, it is a likely review.
 
Well, if it goes in the books as a rushing attempt, why would you think the refs would call it an incomplete pass?
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Because the guys who keep the books don't pay very close attention to laterals.
 
ncjacket said:
I guess the question is whether the refs do.
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Depends on the league. I've seen fumbled pitches that were forward get called incomplete in the NFL, and in the Big 12. Time will only tell whether ACC officials are competent enough to realize it when that happens.
 
beej67 said:
Depends on the league. I've seen fumbled pitches that were forward get called incomplete in the NFL, and in the Big 12. Time will only tell whether ACC officials are competent enough to realize it when that happens.
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Yeah, I think PJ needs to add that to his course on the difference between cut blocking and chop blocks for the ACC referees in the off season.:biggthumpup:
 
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