Why does GT suck at recruiting?

[stinger78]

My kids go to private in Macon, GA. And my example is more like ncjackets than yours, stinger.

Good. Any others? Let me ask you a question, BuzzMD. Since you are a physician, I might surmise that the school you send your kids to may tend to be more of an "elite" school. What is the tuition/student/year at your childrens' school?

There are elite schools that certainly would show a major difference (depending upon how you define it), as they will be far more selective. As the demand for private education has risen, many more affordable private schools have sprung up. It is my contention that those differences are much smaller in those more affordable private schools precisely because more middle class families can afford to send their children. Make sense? Perhaps these schools are missing in Macon and Raleigh. Then again, perhaps they are there and you just don't know it.

I also assert that the departures from the norm are generally only little more pronounced in these more main-line private schools than the departures you find between most public schools.

Here are the stats in our county just looking at ethnicity alone. Included here are the ethnic demographics for the county, my girls' school, and the public middle schools within about 10 miles of my kids' school. (Bear in mind that Hispanic is considered a nationality, and can be of any race, so it presented in addition to race per Gwinnett County Quick Facts):

Gwinnett County (0) (Parentheses indicate total absolute value departure from countywide percentage):
68% White, 20% Black, 17% Hispanic, 9% Asian, Other 3%.

My kids' MS (33):
76% White (8), 20% Black (0), 3% Hispanic (14), 1% Asian (8), 0% Other (3)

8 miles northeast - Hoschton (17):
68% White (0), 14% Black (6), 10% Hispanic (7), 5% Asian (4), 3% Other (0)

8 miles north - Buford (19):
57% White (11), 18% Black (2), 13% Hispanic (4), 10% Asian (1), 2% Other (1)

5 miles northwest - Suwanee (27):
56% White (12), 13% Black (4), 13% Hispanic (4), 14% Asian (6), 4% Other (1)

8 miles southeast - Harbins (48):
50% White (18), 34% Black (14), 7% Hispanic (10), 4% Asian (5), 4 Other (1)

1 mile east - Lawrenceville (27):
48% White (20), 20% Black (0), 15% Hispanic (2), 12% Asian (3), 5% Other (2)

5 miles east - Dacula (41):
48% White (20), 31% Black (11), 14% Hispanic (3), 4% Asian (5), 3% Other (3)

5 miles to the south - Lawrenceville (105):
7% White (61), 35% Black (15), 45% Hispanic (28), 9% Asian (0), 4% Other (1)

5 miles to the southwest - Lilburn (40):
45% White (23), 20% Black (0), 12% Hispanic (5), 19% Asian (10), 5% Other (2)

5 miles west - Duluth (55):
38% White (30), 21% Black (1), 11% Hispanic (6), 26% Asian (17), 4% Other (1)

 

[BuzzMD]

Good. Any others? Let me ask you a question, BuzzMD. Since you are a physician, I might surmise that the school you send your kids to may tend to be more of an "elite" school. What is the tuition/student/year at your childrens' school?

There are 4 dominant private schools in Macon, with several "smaller" Christian schools as well.

The 4 dominant private schools are:
Stratford -- secular in basis -- tuition about 10-11k/year
FPD -- Christian in basis -- 10k
Mt. DeSales -- Catholic school -- 9k
Tatnall -- Christian -- 9k

I guess, by those criteria, my sons are at the "elite" school -- but those at FPD and MDS would argue that they are just as elite as Stratford. . My wife and I chose Stratford, not for the "eliteness," but for the philosophy of teaching style.This all being said, NONE of the ones I just mentioned accept special needs individuals So my description of what happened in the public school classes still applies to all of these schools.

Secondly, in Macon/Bibb County, until last year there was something called M to M transfers allowed. This meant anyone who was in the majority race at one school could transfer to any school where he/she would be in the minority -- and the County paid for it. Looking at your demographics are much different than Macon's public schools, where the "best" elementary school was about 60-40 Caucasian to AA (not surewhere you got your numbers -- as I cannot find official stats of demographics at each school.)

Any student who resides in a school zone in which his/her race is in the majority may choose to attend any other school in the system that has space (except the magnet schools) where his/her race is in the minority. The Board of Education shall furnish free transportation to any student exercising the option to transfer under this provision. Majority to Minority Transfers will only be approved to schools that are not at capacity. The schools that are able to receive Majority to Minority Transfers are listed below: (see enrollment/capacity information above). [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Elementary Schools​

[/FONT]

Barden​

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Bernd​

​

Brookdale​

​

Burdell/Hunt​

​

Burghard​

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Burke​

​

Carter​

​

Hartley​

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Ingram-Pye​

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Jones​

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King/Danforth​

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Morgan​

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Riley​

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Springdale​

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Taylor​

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Union​

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Williams​

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[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Middle Schools​

[/FONT]

Appling​

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Ballard-Hudson​

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Bloomfield​

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Miller​

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Weaver​

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[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

High Schools​

[/FONT]

Hutchings​

​

Northeast​

​

Southwest​

​

 

[beej67]

Here are the stats in our county just looking at ethnicity alone.

My definition? Income level. I've stuck to it through the thread, and I will continue to stick to it. Income level. Find a public school and a private school who's median family income is the same, and you'll find two schools who's median test scores are the same, or damn near.

**

 

[stinger78]

There are 4 dominant private schools in Macon, with several "smaller" Christian schools as well.

The 4 dominant private schools are:
Stratford -- secular in basis -- tuition about 10-11k/year
FPD -- Christian in basis -- 10k
Mt. DeSales -- Catholic school -- 9k
Tatnall -- Christian -- 9k

I guess, by those criteria, my sons are at the "elite" school -- but those at FPD and MDS would argue that they are just as elite as Stratford. . My wife and I chose Stratford, not for the "eliteness," but for the philosophy of teaching style.This all being said, NONE of the ones I just mentioned accept special needs individuals So my description of what happened in the public school classes still applies to all of these schools.

Secondly, in Macon/Bibb County, until last year there was something called M to M transfers allowed. This meant anyone who was in the majority race at one school could transfer to any school where he/she would be in the minority -- and the County paid for it. Looking at your demographics are much different than Macon's public schools, where the "best" elementary school was about 60-40 Caucasian to AA (not surewhere you got your numbers -- as I cannot find official stats of demographics at each school.)

Thanks for the reply, BuzzMD. I really appreciate the manner in which you seem to want to actually engage in discussion over an issue and not just sling smart accusations around.

The annual tuition at my daughters' school for one child is $3650 per student.

M to M has been around Atlanta for decades, and has led to evening out the ethnic clumps. Still, as you can see, each area still has it's tendencies.

I got the figures from this website, and some of the individual schools' websites as well. They are pretty much the same, with newer data differing a pct or two here and there.

http://www.greatschools.net/

As you can see, there is a wide disparity even between public schools, so with the exception of special admits, I don't know that private schools can rightly be singled out one way or the other - at least in the area I live in.

Enjoyed the discussion. Have a great day.

GO JACKETS!!!

 

[BuzzMD]

Ah, thanks for the website. Well, for the school that is considered the "best" or near the "best" elementary school and is near (less than 1 mile) both FPD and Stratford (Sonny Carter). But to me, the bigger issue than race demographics is learning/emotional disabilities being placed in "inclusion" classes -- at least that was the biggest problem my children had with their classes. I was the biggest public school supporter -- as my children were in gifted program -- and the private schools have no gifted program ("They are all gifted." is what one headmaster told me). However, on the days that there was not gifted education, when I asked my kids how school was -- they EVERYDAY told me who got in trouble for hitting, spitting, biting, yelling, etc. While now, although there is no gifted classes, when I ask my kids about school -- it is always about Israel Bissel or Benjamin Franklin, or whatever cool subject they learned today. To me, a former die-hard public school fanatic, I have been sold in that the discipline problems in the public school have sold me on private school.

Sonny Carter Demographics
White48% % Black42% % Asian4%%

Multi-Racial3%%

Hispanic2%%

Unspecified1%


FPD Demographics:
White, not Hispanic97%

Asian/Pacific Islander1%

Black, not Hispanic<1%

Hispanic<1%
Stratford (where my children are)
White, not Hispanic93%

Asian/Pacific Islander4%

Black, not Hispanic2%

Hispanic<1%

 

[stinger78]

Ah, thanks for the website. Well, for the school that is considered the "best" or near the "best" elementary school and is near (less than 1 mile) both FPD and Stratford (Sonny Carter). But to me, the bigger issue than race demographics is learning/emotional disabilities being placed in "inclusion" classes -- at least that was the biggest problem my children had with their classes. I was the biggest public school supporter -- as my children were in gifted program -- and the private schools have no gifted program ("They are all gifted." is what one headmaster told me). However, on the days that there was not gifted education, when I asked my kids how school was -- they EVERYDAY told me who got in trouble for hitting, spitting, biting, yelling, etc. While now, although there is no gifted classes, when I ask my kids about school -- it is always about Israel Bissel or Benjamin Franklin, or whatever cool subject they learned today. To me, a former die-hard public school fanatic, I have been sold in that the discipline problems in the public school have sold me on private school.

Sonny Carter Demographics
White48% % Black42% % Asian4%%

Multi-Racial3%%

Hispanic2%%

Unspecified1%


FPD Demographics:
White, not Hispanic97%

Asian/Pacific Islander1%

Black, not Hispanic<1%

Hispanic<1%
Stratford (where my children are)
White, not Hispanic93%

Asian/Pacific Islander4%

Black, not Hispanic2%

Hispanic<1%

Yes, discipline issues are huge with me, too. Plus, with two daughters, I really didn't want to have them deal with the filthy junk they would have encountered daily that seems to go on unchecked in public schools today.

I don't know what they are like in Macon, but here the high schools are routinely over 4000-5000 students. Mine was 1600 in a 5-year HS in DeKalb Co. back in the 70's. I don't know what Einstein feels that putting 4-5K hormone-laden HS students together in one place is a good example of socialization, but I heartily disagree.

As to beej's assertion about being poor, have you ever seen the movie "Stand and Deliver?" It is a powerful, and true, movie about what happened with poor students in south LA when they were challenged and taught math, all the way to AP Calculus. It is probably the most inspiring movie I've ever seen, and it is a true story.

They are almost never challenged in this way, and that is a great failing of our public system, and very different from most private schools I've been associated with.

 

[floridajacket]

Some of the worst school districts spend the most, per capita, on students. I recently read that Pittsburgh spends $18,000 per student. There's certainly more funding than private schools.

I'm not saying there are no public schools which do well, but why do some of the worst school districts spend the most per student? Some of the answer is mismanagement; DC, for example, keeps all school open even at 30% capacity. When half the schools could be closed, there's a lot of HVAC and maintenance dollars being wasted.

But most of it goes back to the education establishment and it's hold on school boards. The private schools can throw any kid out anytime they like for misbehaving. Public schools have no such option, and inner city schools have a few horribly misbehaving kids who ruin any class. Separating these kids into special classes has a very derogatory term in education circles, "tracking." It is thought that every kid should have the same "opportunity." Never mind that these kids almost never get anything out of education anyway, and that Europe has a very tiered public education system.

And then there's teacher's unions. I wonder how anybody could defend the unions striking down a proposal from a Wal-mart heir to build charter schools in Detroit, for free. And that's only the beginning of their stronghold on inner-city schools.

 

[beej67]

Pitsburgh wouldn't have to spend near that much if it's students came from wealthy families.

 

[aeromech]

There are 4 dominant private schools in Macon, with several "smaller" Christian schools as well.

The 4 dominant private schools are:
Stratford -- secular in basis -- tuition about 10-11k/year
FPD -- Christian in basis -- 10k
Mt. DeSales -- Catholic school -- 9k
Tatnall -- Christian -- 9k

FYI BuzzMD, you guys in Macon are paying 2-3 times more for similar private school education in Macon as parents here in Huntsville do. For example, compare Mt. Desales to St. John's:

http://www.stjohnb.com/new_student_information.htm

When we looked into it about 2 years ago, private schools here charged ~5K,
http://www.wca-hsv.org/pdfs/Tuition0910.pdf
and only the very elite schools charged >$7k. For us, with 3 kids, it would have been like buying a new car every year even at these lower rates.

I had some friends whose kids were in private school near Conyers, Ga. I think they were paying ~$3500 (for middle & high school); but I don't remember the name of the school.

 

[NatiJacket]

As to beej's assertion about being poor, have you ever seen the movie "Stand and Deliver?" It is a powerful, and true, movie about what happened with poor students in south LA when they were challenged and taught math, all the way to AP Calculus. It is probably the most inspiring movie I've ever seen, and it is a true story.

How can I reach these kids?!?

The point is, most poor kids don't have the support they need to learn very well, since there are usually problems at home. Single moms don't give much support if they are working 2 jobs to make ends meet. There are exceptions, like in Stand and Deliver where the teacher supplies that needed support, but that requires teachers who are willing to go the extra 10 miles to do that.

We live in a society where we say "Those who can't do, teach" as if its a bad thing and only losers and quitters should do it. We then blast teachers for not being good enough.

Shocking.

 

[NatiJacket]

And then there's teacher's unions. I wonder how anybody could defend the unions striking down a proposal from a Wal-mart heir to build charter schools in Detroit, for free. And that's only the beginning of their stronghold on inner-city schools.

I'm sure that offer was with no strings attached. :rolleyes:

 

[stinger78]

How can I reach these kids?!?

The point is, most poor kids don't have the support they need to learn very well, since there are usually problems at home. Single moms don't give much support if they are working 2 jobs to make ends meet. There are exceptions, like in Stand and Deliver where the teacher supplies that needed support, but that requires teachers who are willing to go the extra 10 miles to do that.

We live in a society where we say "Those who can't do, teach" as if its a bad thing and only losers and quitters should do it. We then blast teachers for not being good enough.

Shocking.

Sadly... very true. Economic class shouldn't make a difference, but it often does. Then again, how many of our S-A's come from lower economic circumstances and do well with the support that the GTAA gives them when they mix it with a little hard work?

 

[NatiJacket]

Sadly... very true. Economic class shouldn't make a difference, but it often does. Then again, how many of our S-A's come from lower economic circumstances and do well with the support that the GTAA gives them when they mix it with a little hard work?

If you are a student athlete, you get so much support that, with any semblance of hard work and even the most basic background education, you should be fine.

This thread just somehow turned from "Wah Recruiting" to "Wah Schools"

 

[ramblinwise1]

The 4 dominant private schools are:
Stratford -- secular in basis -- tuition about 10-11k/year
FPD -- Christian in basis -- 10k
Mt. DeSales -- Catholic school -- 9k
Tatnall -- Christian -- 9k

My kids went to a GISA school elsewhere. My wife and I both attended rural public school at the time of forced integration. My impression of those 4 schools

Stratford-- privileged white kids in Macon. Unique economic demography. Doctors, lawyers, old money.

FPD-- well to do children of successful local businessmen. Lots of first generation money. They copy UGAg in their athletics. If these folks lived in North Atlanta their kids would go to public school.

MDS-- a for real Catholic school. Economic demographic runs the gamut. Mostly middle class.

Tattnall-- Mostly good old country boys and girls. Lots of out of county kids, especially those who can play sports. ;)

You failed to mention Windsor in South Macon which seems to be refugees from public school in the Southern part of the county.

The integration period nearly destroyed public schools in Macon. All the existing public schools were blown out of existence and they created 3 literally directional schools which resembled large warehouses. Literally: Southwest, Northeast, Central. Southeast came later and went away. Now there are Westide, Howard, and Rutland too, so they have gone away from the all largest classification warehouses to schools sized from AA to AAAAA.

 

[BuzzMD]

Ramblin, good analysis of the schools from outside observer. I did not include Windsor, as I am fairly new to the private school community -- and these are the big 4 everyone talks about here in Macon. I believe I might add a comment on FPD about church/conservativeness.

Here is a joke I have heard about Stratford, Tatnall, and FPD.

If you go to a football game at Stratford, you hear everyone there talking about the latest bridge club, country club event, or shopping sales.
If you go to a football game at FPD, you hear everyone there talking about the last church sermon, their Bible study, or Wednesday night supper.
If you go to a football game at Tatnall, you hear everyone there talking about the football game.

BTW, does anyone mind if we move this or further discussion on this to the Off Topic forum? This really has no relation to football, imo.