AJ Green apologists

GiveEmHellJackets said:
Your position seems to rely on the assumption that some people have no choice but to play football. Address this point head on rather than talking about taxes.
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Your argument is that a "take it or leave it" monopoly is the same as a free market. I call total BS on your argument.

If you don't like my analogy, I'm just heartbroken about that.

Let's try a different analogy. ADM and other corn syrup producers collude to fix corn syrup prices (this actually happened, as I learned from the movies.) Your argument would be - no crime there, people who don't like it can just not buy corn syrup. Fortunately for the rest of us, the justice department saw it differently.
 
mm42 said:
Your argument is that a "take it or leave it" monopoly is the same as a free market. I call total BS on your argument.

If you don't like my analogy, I'm just heartbroken about that.

Let's try a different analogy. ADM and other corn syrup producers collude to fix corn syrup prices (this actually happened, as I learned from the movies.) Your argument would be - no crime there, people who don't like it can just not buy corn syrup. Fortunately for the rest of us, the justice department saw it differently.
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There's a really good book on that if you haven't read it - the one the movie's based on.
 
gsu_paintballer said:
Well if no one's exercising alternate routes, they appear to think they're getting the best deal with the NCAA.
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Wrong - those leagues aren't hiring high school students. You might as well argue they should become NFL commissioner if they are interested in football.
 
mm42 said:
Your argument is that a "take it or leave it" monopoly is the same as a free market. I call total BS on your argument.
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No, I never said anything like that. Those words are your attempt to cram my position into your terms. What I said is that each athlete may decide whether to play NCAA football. If they don't like the compensation, they can pursue other things in life.

mm42 said:
Let's try a different analogy.
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Okay...

mm42 said:
ADM and other corn syrup producers collude to fix corn syrup prices (this actually happened, as I learned from the movies.) Your argument would be - no crime there, people who don't like it can just not buy corn syrup. Fortunately for the rest of us, the justice department saw it differently.
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You are comparing consumers to employees. Fail.
 
mm42 said:
Your argument is that a "take it or leave it" monopoly is the same as a free market. I call total BS on your argument.

If you don't like my analogy, I'm just heartbroken about that.

Let's try a different analogy. ADM and other corn syrup producers collude to fix corn syrup prices (this actually happened, as I learned from the movies.) Your argument would be - no crime there, people who don't like it can just not buy corn syrup. Fortunately for the rest of us, the justice department saw it differently.
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First, we have discussed the collusion aspect of it. Paying them $80 bucks a week it's still collusion. If you have a problem with collusion, then thats a different discussion, and the $80 is irrelevant. That would mean breaking up the NCAA, or at least stripping it of its power.

Second, are there really zero pro football players with no college? Really zero arena league players with no college? I think thats BS.

Third, they can work, just not during the season. There may be other restrictions since the Oklahoma car dealership incident. But they can work.
 
mm42 said:
Thanks for the tasty red herring.
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Actually, it's completely relevant.

Baseball players accept a low salary in their first 6 years in order to make a big salary later. College football players accept a low salary in their first 4 years in order to make a big salary later.
 
mm42 said:
Go look up "analogy" in the dictionary.
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Go look up Justice Department and other federal policies and laws and tell me if employees are protected and regulated the same as consumers. I'll be over here with my dictionary.:rolleyes:
 
GTCrew said:
First, we have discussed the collusion aspect of it. Paying them $80 bucks a week it's still collusion. If you have a problem with collusion, then thats a different discussion ...
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That's an argument with GEHJ as to whether or not we have a "free market", not an argument about whether we should give them $80/week. GEHJ argument is that because players accept the current price offered in the monopoly, it is the perfect, true, exact, correct, just, and fair price and anyone who wants to change it is a moron.

Second, are there really zero pro football players with no college? Really zero arena league players with no college? I think thats BS.
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If you think it's BS, all you have to do is name a player who went straight from high school.

It has actually happened in basketball, BTW. Such truly exceptional talents would not really be an argument against a monopoly. 0.01% of the market is irrelevant.

Third, they can work, just not during the season. There may be other restrictions since the Oklahoma car dealership incident. But they can work.
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You are correct - I was 10 years out of date in my information.
 
mm42 said:
That's an argument with GEHJ as to whether or not we have a "free market", not an argument about whether we should give them $80/week. GEHJ argument is that because players accept the current price offered in the monopoly, it is the perfect, true, exact, correct, just, and fair price and anyone who wants to change it is a moron.
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No, I haven't said anything is perfect, true, exact etc. I never came close to saying any of this.

I'm saying that each athlete's remedy against the horrible unfairness of NCAA policies is to refuse to play NCAA sports. That's all I've said. NCAA and its member schools make offers to athletes. The freedom I refer to is their freedom to accept or reject offers. Nobody on this earth is obligated to pay football. You are grossly mischaracterizing what I say and you are making crazy analogies.

And you know it. :)
 
mm42, could you stop with the ridiculous analogies and just boil your central point down to, like, a relevant paragraph or something? Wading through these strawmen and tangents is getting a bit taxing.
 
GiveEmHellJackets said:
No, I haven't said anything is perfect, true, exact etc. I never came close to saying any of this.
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So you agree that the rate is not perfect? OK, then what is the correct rate of pay for college football players?

I'm saying that each athlete's remedy against the horrible unfairness of NCAA policies is to refuse to play NCAA sports ... Nobody on this earth is obligated to pay football.
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I suggest you read up on monopsony in labor markets. Here's a starting point:
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/boal.monopsony

A quote for those too lazy to read it:
In labor markets, "buyers" are employers, "sellers" are individual workers, the "good" is time and effort, and the "price" is the going wage or salary level. An employer who enjoys monopsony power holds down the wage by limiting the number of workers it hires. At the resulting inefficient level of employment, the value of the last worker's contribution to output is greater than the wage she or he receives. This gap was termed the "rate of exploitation" by Pigou ...
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gtphd said:
Baseball players accept a low salary in their first 6 years in order to make a big salary later. College football players accept a low salary in their first 4 years in order to make a big salary later.
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Some baseball players coming straight out of high school get >$1M signing bonuses. Red herring.
 
Ish said:
mm42, could you stop with the ridiculous analogies and just boil your central point down to, like, a relevant paragraph or something? Wading through these strawmen and tangents is getting a bit taxing.
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NCAA football is a labor market monopsony.
 
Yeah, I'll get on that when you read up on consumer protection laws vs. employment regulations.

The "correct rate of pay" for college football players is not up to me. That's between the players and those who make them offers to play.
 
This thread failed ages ago. Why are you all wasting your time?
 
GiveEmHellJackets said:
Yeah, I'll get on that when you read up on consumer protection laws vs. employment regulations.
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Analogies are, by their very nature, not 100% equivalent.

Feel free to ignore the analogies if you like, and explain how a labor market monopsony is equal to a fair market.

The "correct rate of pay" for college football players is not up to me. That's between the players and those who make them offers to play.
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The rate of pay in a labor market monopsony is not negotiated between labor and management - it is dictated by management.
 
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