Dinich forum

If the SEC out recruits the ACC so much, then their coaches must really suck because there isn't as big of a gap once those players are in the NFL.

Obviously SEC coaches don't suck, so something tells me that gap isn't as large as advertised.
 
I think the only difference between the talent in the ACC schools and the big time SEC schools is the drop-off between starters and replacements. ACC schools have the same types of marquee players that the Send 'Em Cash conference does, but the depth isn't the same. That's really the only difference to me. If that means SEC Speed, then so be it, but that's the only thing I see.
 
The NFL is not college. You don't recruit someone because they have great NFL prospects, you recruit them to win college football games. Sometimes the two may correlate, but not always. Vince Young was one of the best college football QBs but he's no longer starting for the titans. People should stop basing things like the worthiness of Heisman winners or the talent of a player based on NFL success or lack there of. Yes, the high level of guys drafted does indicate that there is lots of NFL talent playing in the ACC, but who outside of talent scouts cares? It's about winning, especially the big games and the BCS bowls. This is where ACC has failed to show up for the past 20 years.
 
I don't understand why we continue to speculate on a verdict that has already been delivered:

Dinich is a dumb****.
 
It's not really speculation so much as continuing to follow the train wreck that ESPN has turned into.

As time goes by, the media gets increasingly overreactionary and ridiculous. It's very annoying. I wish we could punish them.
 
There are studies that relate #stars to All-American, as well as #stars to overall wins.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...ighborhood-recruiting-rankin?urn=ncaaf,137439
ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-624087776-1233190366.jpg


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...ighborhood-recruiting-rankin?urn=ncaaf,137146
ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-470351640-1233024513.jpg


There are 2 caveats to both of these articles -- the more stars a person has, the more he is likely to be biased to be named an All-American, at least as a rookie -- and then the bias is in; and to the number of wins, the larger, better programs typically get the better star players -- and they are winning more because they are the larger programs, so it is a bit of a circumferential argument.

BuzzMD, what your first graph tells me is that even amateurs can spot the best talent and label it 5-star. It also could indicate, as you say, that those guys tend to go to the factories that produce A-A's.

For example, you cannot show that Reggie Bush is really considerably better in his first 3 NFL years (~3500 all-purpose yards) than Tiki Barber was (~2800) in a limited role. Some better, yes, but significantly? Was he a product of being surrounded by superior talent in college?

If I read the graph correctly, the difference drops considerably when you grant the 5-stars and focus on 4/3/2-star guys. There just isn't much difference, especially when you factor in the much greater number of 3/2-star players than 4-star.

On the second graph, there are about 10 programs that distinguish themselves. The rest are pretty much scattered in a circle. Though the overall trend is upward, the real distinct upward slope (and distinctly narrowing sigma) appears to occur at about 5500 rivals points, or about 1100/year. Between 2002-03 that would roughly include the top 50 rated recruiting classes, but from 2004 onward that is about the top 30-40 programs or so. There are a lot of 2/3-star players in that group.

So the second graph indicates a distinct correlation between the top 30-40 programs distributed between winning roughly 60-75% of games. Over a 12-game season (at 8% per win), that equates to winning between ~8 and ~9 wins.

I'd conclude that though there is a general trend, the result is not a significant advantage, except for the very top programs, and those have other advantages that quite possibly skew the correlation.

So yeah, I'll agree that there is some accuracy to the amateurs' assessments, especially wrt the 5-star level. However, I'd say the correlation becomes so broad, with so little inherrent benefit in that middle area between the factories and the have-nots, that a valid conclusion has to be tentative at best.
 
s78,

I agree with your limitations with the study -- besides, both studies are more correlation studies than true causation studies as well.

Also in one of the articles was a graph showing in battles with teams where one team is more than 2000 points higher than the other in rivals points, the winning percentage is 66+%.

The comments at bottom of the articles are also very good to read as well -- both showing limitation of the studies as well as defense of the studies.
 
BuzzMD, what your first graph tells me is that even amateurs can spot the best talent and label it 5-star. It also could indicate, as you say, that those guys tend to go to the factories that produce A-A's.

For example, you cannot show that Reggie Bush is really considerably better in his first 3 NFL years (~3500 all-purpose yards) than Tiki Barber was (~2800) in a limited role. Some better, yes, but significantly? Was he a product of being surrounded by superior talent in college?

If I read the graph correctly, the difference drops considerably when you grant the 5-stars and focus on 4/3/2-star guys. There just isn't much difference, especially when you factor in the much greater number of 3/2-star players than 4-star.

On the second graph, there are about 10 programs that distinguish themselves. The rest are pretty much scattered in a circle. Though the overall trend is upward, the real distinct upward slope (and distinctly narrowing sigma) appears to occur at about 5500 rivals points, or about 1100/year. Between 2002-03 that would roughly include the top 50 rated recruiting classes, but from 2004 onward that is about the top 30-40 programs or so. There are a lot of 2/3-star players in that group.

So the second graph indicates a distinct correlation between the top 30-40 programs distributed between winning roughly 60-75% of games. Over a 12-game season (at 8% per win), that equates to winning between ~8 and ~9 wins.

I'd conclude that though there is a general trend, the result is not a significant advantage, except for the very top programs, and those have other advantages that quite possibly skew the correlation.

So yeah, I'll agree that there is some accuracy to the amateurs' assessments, especially wrt the 5-star level. However, I'd say the correlation becomes so broad, with so little inherrent benefit in that middle area between the factories and the have-nots, that a valid conclusion has to be tentative at best.

:10:
That's all I got...
 
I don't think ACC out recruits SEC schools, but I don't think it's as big of a gap as most would like you to believe.

Also, I am a VERY firm believer in the garbage of highly recruited players dropping in 'ratings' when going with an ACC school over an SEC school and vice versa.
The truth is that the ACC has lots of good players, but not many good teams. You can make of it what you want, but anyone who tries to argue that the ACC is close to the SEC in any measure other than players drafted is crazy. It's not about getting people in the pros, it's about winning games when it matters. Until we start doing that as a conference we don't have much to talk about.
 
s78,

I agree with your limitations with the study -- besides, both studies are more correlation studies than true causation studies as well.

Also in one of the articles was a graph showing in battles with teams where one team is more than 2000 points higher than the other in rivals points, the winning percentage is 66+%.

The comments at bottom of the articles are also very good to read as well -- both showing limitation of the studies as well as defense of the studies.

Correlation doesn't prove causality, that's true. But these debates always end up with anecdotal rationalizations for positions that are unsupported by the actual data.

In short, while correlation doesn't prove causality it is an indication that there may be a cause and effect relationship*. When the only evidence contrary to that are a few anecdotes comparing individuals then the balance of the argument is tilted to one side.

The scatter plot indicates correlation as well as the presence of a few outliers. Calling attention to a few anecdotal examples of the outliers does not negate the presence of the correlation.

It is interesting to me that your first graph indicates an exponential correlation between star ratings and performance. The dropoff from 5 to 4 is huge and the dropoff between 2 and 1 is minimal.


*Causaility does imply there should be a correlation though the converse is not true.
 
Conferences are judged based on the top teams.
.

Hmmm, that's the rub.

I think you are correct in the common perception. But people don't say "The top teams in the SEC are tough." They say, "The SEC is tough." It is implied that top to bottom it is a treacherous gauntlet.

When we actually measure the performance of every team in all the conferences, we get different results. (Again, that only applies over several years. In any given year certain conferences are better than others.)
 
The NFL is not college. You don't recruit someone because they have great NFL prospects, you recruit them to win college football games. Sometimes the two may correlate, but not always. Vince Young was one of the best college football QBs but he's no longer starting for the titans. People should stop basing things like the worthiness of Heisman winners or the talent of a player based on NFL success or lack there of. Yes, the high level of guys drafted does indicate that there is lots of NFL talent playing in the ACC, but who outside of talent scouts cares? It's about winning, especially the big games and the BCS bowls. This is where ACC has failed to show up for the past 20 years.

+lots

*anecdotal evidence alert*

Archie Griffin, 2-time Heisman Award winner = NFL bust

/anecdotal evidence
 
The truth is that the ACC has lots of good players, but not many good teams. You can make of it what you want, but anyone who tries to argue that the ACC is close to the SEC in any measure other than players drafted is crazy. It's not about getting people in the pros, it's about winning games when it matters. Until we start doing that as a conference we don't have much to talk about.

Good point. I'll take it one step further. While we both have similar talent between conferences, the SEC has very good coaches across the board. 4 coaches that have won National Championships. 7 that have won conference championsips. Basically, the SEC has hands down the best coaches of any conference. While we may have one or two, most of the coaching in the ACC is putrid. I will say that it has gotten better over the last two seasons, but like you said, until we start winning ooc games, we're gonna suffer from poor mouthing.
 
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