Don't expect to see that Fake FG play again

According to NCAA rule 9-2-2-b: “No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents.”

A strict constructionist would have to rule our play illegal, since our tactic did confuse our opponent. But the rule is bogus, since half the strategy of football is meant "to confuse the opponent."

(Anybody remember Army's "lonesome end" tactic from the late 50s?)
 
"What happens is the play confuses the officials, too, which is exactly what happened," Rhoads said.
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I figure you could also confuse ACC officials with a card that said "Turn over" on both sides.

They should spend more time worrying about the definition of hold and chop block before taking time out of their busy schedule to debate this. Miami and FSU won't get themselves back on top without some help, and the ACC has a lot of work to do.
 
unforgiven108 said:
I still haven't heard what was the 'trick substitution'. They ran 10 guys off and 10 guys on. Thomas lined up like normal (didn't stand at the sideline like he was walking off or go off the field then back on).

The ONLY thing that I saw that could have been 'wrong' was that he ran to the sideline, when everyone else ran off. Doesn't seem that big of a deal to me, the ref even delayed the snap for a good 5~7 seconds with Thomas lined up like he was running a route.
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That is the whole trick. Do you think Thomas went with the other 10 by coincidence? Of course not. The play was designed to deceive the other team using substitutions(and worked quite well.) The fact that Thomas didn't actually leave the field doesn't change that.

Now, whether you think it's a good rule or not is of course a matter of opinion(like I said, I do think it is a good rule), but it IS a rule.
 
gth816f said:
That is the whole trick. Do you think Thomas went with the other 10 by coincidence? Of course not. The play was designed to deceive the other team using substitutions(and worked quite well.) The fact that Thomas didn't actually leave the field doesn't change that.

Now, whether you think it's a good rule or not is of course a matter of opinion(like I said, I do think it is a good rule), but it IS a rule.
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Yes, but there was nothing deceptive once the players were all on the field is what I'm saying. That's like saying the handoff the QB does where he acts like he throws it and then hands it off behind his back should be illegal. And if Thomas has to wait to get in position until after substitutions are made, what if it was a regular play and he had to run to the sideline to get in position quickly...should he wait until the subs run off the field?

Just seems like a dumb interpretation of the rule, the fact that he went to his position with players that were going off the field.
 
unforgiven108 said:
Yes, but there was nothing deceptive once the players were all on the field is what I'm saying. That's like saying the handoff the QB does where he acts like he throws it and then hands it off behind his back should be illegal. And if Thomas has to wait to get in position until after substitutions are made, what if it was a regular play and he had to run to the sideline to get in position quickly...should he wait until the subs run off the field?

Just seems like a dumb interpretation of the rule, the fact that he went to his position with players that were going off the field.
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The fact that there was nothing deceptive once the players were all on the field doesn't change the fact that something deceptive happened before it, which is illegal. It's just like how you can't break the huddle with 12 men, even if one of them goes to the sideline after.

The rule says: "No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents."

Yes, it is somewhat of a judgment call, as referenced by your last point. But do you honestly believe that our play was not designed to use our substitutes to confuse our opponents? In this situation, it's cut and clear, and the answer is that it was.
 
gth816f said:
The fact that there was nothing deceptive once the players were all on the field doesn't change the fact that something deceptive happened before it, which is illegal. It's just like how you can't break the huddle with 12 men, even if one of them goes to the sideline after.

The rule says: "No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents."

Yes, it is somewhat of a judgment call, as referenced by your last point. But do you honestly believe that our play was not designed to use our substitutes to confuse our opponents? In this situation, it's cut and clear, and the answer is that it was.
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I do not dispute that the mass substitution was a screen to hide the fact that Thomas was still on the field, but I think that things like this should not be illegal. We did not run 11 guys on, then have one run off, or run Thomas off and then have him jump back on at the last second like Clemson did with Ford.

I'm just playing the homer card and trying to get as much spin as I can out of it. I'm just having trouble seeing how this should be an illegal play. :)
 
unforgiven108 said:
I do not dispute that the mass substitution was a screen to hide the fact that Thomas was still on the field, but I think that things like this should not be illegal. We did not run 11 guys on, then have one run off, or run Thomas off and then have him jump back on at the last second like Clemson did with Ford.

I'm just playing the homer card and trying to get as much spin as I can out of it. I'm just having trouble seeing how this should be an illegal play. :)
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Okay, I can definitely see that. Personally, I like the rule, but I agree that there's nothing really exploitative about what we did...if Clemson had been paying more attention they would have caught it and we wouldn't have scored.
 
You can have 11 players on the field. If the defense doesn't account for all 11 players on offense and gets beat, that's their fault. I don't see how you can "use the substitution process to confuse your opponent".
 
gth816f said:
Okay, I can definitely see that. Personally, I like the rule, but I agree that there's nothing really exploitative about what we did...if Clemson had been paying more attention they would have caught it and we wouldn't have scored.
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A lot of clemson fans I've seen have posted that it doesn't matter, that the fact they lined up in a punt block formation when our kicker was going for a 53 yarder (when he'd never made one outside of 40) was the real problem. They then cite on a similar play we had a guy back to return (when they lined up for a 57 yarder).

Even Clemson fans have no beef with the in(correct) ruling on the fake field goal.
 
unforgiven108 said:
A lot of clemson fans I've seen have posted that it doesn't matter, that the fact they lined up in a punt block formation when our kicker was going for a 53 yarder (when he'd never made one outside of 40) was the real problem. They then cite on a similar play we had a guy back to return (when they lined up for a 57 yarder).

Even Clemson fans have no beef with the in(correct) ruling on the fake field goal.
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Good for them, that's the view I'd take too. First of all, it's better (in my mind) to lose because of your mistakes rather than because the refs blew it, so in a situation where both occur, I prefer to look at what we can do to better ourselves. Second, refs are going to miss calls every game; if you're going to be a good team, you have to minimize how much these missed calls hurt you.

Also, I would guess that most people don't even know this is a rule and don't like it now that they do, like most of the people in this thread.

Jacket4Life13: If you don't see how you can use the substitution process to confuse your opponent, go watch the Clemson game. You'll notice a textbook example of it in the first quarter. There's a reason no one on Clemson noticed Thomas splitting out wide :p.
 
gth816f said:
That is the whole trick. Do you think Thomas went with the other 10 by coincidence? Of course not. The play was designed to deceive the other team using substitutions(and worked quite well.) The fact that Thomas didn't actually leave the field doesn't change that.

Now, whether you think it's a good rule or not is of course a matter of opinion(like I said, I do think it is a good rule), but it IS a rule.
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While the ACC should come out and clarify this, they won't, because that would mean they'd have to learn and follow their own rules. If Rhodes says it's an illegal play, then that's how they're choosing to interpret the rule, and that's all well and good, but they need to educate their piss poor officials to know what the rules of football are. They should start with holds, and go from there.
 
The rule is total BS. It's waaaaaay too subjective. There are clear and concise substitution rules in place as to not allow an opponent an unfair advantage in the spirit of the game. Just because the coordinator of officials pontificates on his interpretation of the play after the fact doesn't make it so. BeBe never left the field of play, was lined up on the flank before and after the ball was set and the whistle was blown. The very nature of substitutions and personnel on the field are in part designed to deceive the defense of the play your are intending to run. That's part of the game. With this rule, I guess EVERY fake field goal is illegal because you substitute in a kicker and he doesn't kick the ball.
 
gth816f said:
Jacket4Life13: If you don't see how you can use the substitution process to confuse your opponent, go watch the Clemson game. You'll notice a textbook example of it in the first quarter. There's a reason no one on Clemson noticed Thomas splitting out wide :p.
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I should rephrase. I can see how you can, my point is that if you get "tricked" then it's your own fault for not accounting for all 11.
 
Did Thomas run out with the rest of the offense and stop at the sideline or was he already perched on the sideline before the offense ran off the field? I can't seem to find him in the video.
 
Vespid said:
With this rule, I guess EVERY fake field goal is illegal because you substitute in a kicker and he doesn't kick the ball.
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:rolleyes: I know Tech grads are smart enough to see the difference between something like that(or a play action pass, or a direct snap to a RB) and a situation in which a play is designed to confuse the defense as to which players will actually be on the field when the play starts.

ArkyTech: He ran out with the offense and stopped at the sideline. That's the whole issue.
 
gth816f said:
:rolleyes: I know Tech grads are smart enough to see the difference between something like that(or a play action pass, or a direct snap to a RB) and a situation in which a play is designed to confuse the defense as to which players will actually be on the field when the play starts.

ArkyTech: He ran out with the offense and stopped at the sideline. That's the whole issue.
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I suppose you also don't like the play where the QB acts like a TO is going to be called and starts walking off the field to have a direct snap to the RB? :)
 
unforgiven108 said:
I suppose you also don't like the play where the QB acts like a TO is going to be called and starts walking off the field to have a direct snap to the RB? :)
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Haha. I actually do not like that play at all :p. But I don't think that should be made into a rule, however cheap it is. However, when you have players streaming onto and off the field, I think that is a situation which warrants special attention. To me this rule is very similar to the rule about not being able to break the huddle with 12 men; the defense should not be put into a position where they are confused as to which 11 men are going to be on the field.
 
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