Indecision On ACC Expansion (link)

2 Big Techsticles

Flats Noob
Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Messages
533
One more meeting scheduled for tomorrow! Do the link

The Washington Post

The most interesting quote I took from the article was,
"The issue that is really difficult is how much money will be gained or what the risk is if people stand pat, which could lead to other people from the ACC going somewhere else," said March Krotee, a faculty senator and head of the physical education department at N.C. State.
<font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Sans-Serif">That seems to give merit to the point that FSU and TECH will bolt if expansion fails.
 
I hate to say it but with the Dukes of this world and the politics in Va. it just ain't gona happen. God know I hope I'm wrong but this my gut feeling.
 
I can't fault any of the schools for trying to do what is best for themselves, as over against what is "best for the ACC." I certainly want Georgia Tech to do what is best for Georgia Tech, and if it means that we leave the ACC and it becomes a kind of glorified Southern Conference, so be it.

The Virginia legislature's interest in intercollegiate athletics has plenty of precedent. If I were a Virginian, I would want the legislature all over the possibilty that one of my two I-A schools was being sucker-punched by the other.
 
Originally posted by bellyseries:
I can't fault any of the schools for trying to do what is best for themselves, as over against what is "best for the ACC." I certainly want Georgia Tech to do what is best for Georgia Tech, and if it means that we leave the ACC and it becomes a kind of glorified Southern Conference, so be it.

The Virginia legislature's interest in intercollegiate athletics has plenty of precedent. If I were a Virginian, I would want the legislature all over the possibilty that one of my two I-A schools was being sucker-punched by the other.
<font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Sans-Serif">no argument. however, as a fraternity, we have to look at what's best for the entire fraternity as well as what's best for us as an individual member in that fraternity.
 
How interesting this has turned out to be...
Those schools who filed the lawsuit have to know that BC, Miami and Syracuse were ready to leave before the suit - this suit does nothing but make it a definite - the bridges have already been burned!

Those left behind had an opportunity to enhance their standing by joining other conferences but this lawsuit only gives them a lot less credibility and integrity. If I were another conference - I would not look to them for fear of a similar situation(s) down the road.

That being said ... I truly hope GT would never consider joining the SEC - we are so beyond their classless ways and we already left once. I would hope that GT, FSU and Clemson join forces with BC, Syracuse and Miami to initiate the start of a new conference while adding others to establish a very special conference that goes forward to be successful for all members.

I really have a problem with VA now - this whole politics thing is ridiculous - now college football has a political ingredient that doesn't belong here - I go to these games to get away from politics and the rigors of day to day life!

I don't think this expansion is dead and still think it can happen but in all honesty the conference will not survive anyway if there is a NO Vote. I hope GT gets up off its feet and thinks about its future with great deliberation and correctness. With what I've seen lately - I've got some concern.
 
If the expansion fails, it means three schools, Virginia, North Carolina, and Duke have killed it for all of the remaining ACC teams plus Syracuse, Boston College and Miami.

The three teams from the Big East have placed their future on the line, so they have a right to dislike the three ACC schools also.

If I were all of the other schools concerned, I would not hesitate a minute to bolt from the ACC and form a new conference. I would leave Virginia, North Carolina, and Duke hanging on the line to fend for themseves.

The ACC will not be so kind to the three after the others bolt for a new conference.

If Maimi, FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, and Boston College form a new conference, I think it is no-brainer that Maryland will join. They fit right in with a Northern Division.

I think NCSU would wait to see if Maryland joined. As soon as Maryland joined, I think NCSU would certainly join the new conference. I believe Amato has a lot of confidence in his ability and the schools ability to go against the other three.

That gives the new conference eight very strong teams immediately and the dominos will fall toward the new conference.

I can see Penn State and Pittsburgh wanting to join, especially into the Northern Division.

NORTHERN DIVISION
Syracuse
Boston College
Maryland
Penn State
Pittsburgh

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Georgia Tech
NCSU
Clemson
FSU
Miami

I think the above is doable, which would leave one team to gain for each division.

There are a ton of teams that would love to join, one in each division. Again, if I were the proposed members of the new conference, I would not accept Virginia, North Carolina, nor Duke.

I hope the major teams involved already have a leader who has gotten with the rest of the colleges to form the league prior to the end of June. It is obvious to me that the three ACC teams and Swofford are delaying the vote to keep us and the others from forming a new league.

Their hopes are the two million dollars assessed to Syracuse, Boston College, and Miami after June 30 will cause them to forget about a new conference. Their thoughts are this will keep FSU, GT, and Clemson from bolting.

Surely these other presidents have met privately with alternative plans prior to the end of the month. This is one area where Braine has a good chance to redeem himself from the doghouse.

If he were to take the initiative for a new conference with the other ADs involved before the June 30 deadline, it could be a feather in his cap.

Does anyone have any information as to why June 30, 2003 is the magic deadline for any of the Big East schools to bolt with a million dollar penalty, and two million after that? Why this date, and what was the reasoning?

What are all the ramifications of this rule?

Anyone?

drinking.gif
 
If I remember correctly Penn State was not over-joyed at joining the Big Ten. They had decided to become a member of a conference, and that seemed to be the best choice at the time.

It is really not the Big Ten as Penn State made the eleventh team. I do not believe it would be a big problem for them to switch conferences. I don't think the members of the Big Ten would protest profusely.

Syracuse, Boston College, Maryland, Pittsburgh appear to be good area opponents for Penn State. For some reason, they just don't seem to fit in with the Big Ten.

Don't know about FSU and Miami being in the same division. I have heard them say no, and I have heard them say it was okay. Personally, I don't care if they are or are not in the same division. I had rather have FSU in Tech's division, because of their location. It is too far to Miami.

As far as five teams in each division, I have not implied that, nor indicated that in my post. I showed five in each division,
wink.gif
and said another could be added to each from a long list of candidates that would be interested in joining the new conference.

I believe you will find that out if you read the post again.
 
Ahso -

1.Why would PSU leave the Big Ten?

2. No way FSU-Miami in the same division.

3. I thought the magic number driving expansion was 12 not 10?
 
If the right thing had been done, and the three proposed expansion teams had been Miami, VT & WV, the ACC would probably be at 12 schools right now IMHO. To southern college football fans, it's very important to keep the ACC a southern conference.

puke.gif
MsTechyankee

battleflagflying.gif
battleflagflying.gif
battleflagflying.gif
 
Speak for yourself, FH. I'm not excited by Syracuse and BC, but I'd love to have Yankees ND and Penn State in the conference.
 
MaTech, the thought of forming a conference with UM and 2 yankee schools with nobody else right now just makes me sick. We are in the hot blooded world of Deep South college football. Why try to hurt ourselves more than we already have?
 
ACC Expansion Not going to happen according to 790. I hope their sources are wrong.
frown.gif
I HATE DUKE and CAROLINA for this
 
this expansion stuff is killing me. can we find a few more things to make us look like idiots, cause im pretty sure from the outside thats what we look like. lets try to do something positive, please. how embarrassing.
 
1865, I am hearing the same thing. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO ALLOW DUKE AND UNC TO DETERMINE OUR FUTURE AND THAT OF THE REST OF THE ACC!!

In order to get UVA aboard, we might need to add VT and go after another one later to even up. That is not ideal but better than letting the TOBACCO ROAD simpletons control.

MT of BE going after Louisville, Xavier, and Marquette so we do not want to hear another word about how evil it is to raid another conference!

It seems we are letting TOO FEW DICTATE TO THE REST!!
 
Why does Atlantic Coast Conference just mean deep South? I was under the impression it meant Atlantic Coast. IMO, the more diverse markets, the better.
 
I say we just add VT and then pick up Louisville. Their football is up and coming, and there is no way Pitino (whom i consider one of the greatest Bball coaches ever) would not want to be playing with all the other coaching legends in the ACC.
 
G'Tech, Maryland, Virginia, Duke, UNC, and Florida St should leave the ACC and join Syracuse, Boston College, Miami, and Penn St, in a new 10 team conference called the Atlantic League, which would dominate the nation in every sport and every way, football, basketball, overall sports, rivalries, fun, academics, prestige, recruiting, fan base, TV, exposure, revenue, etc. This would double or triple everything including exposure, ranked teams, championships, and revenue per school, important since most schools currently lose money on athletics. Tripling the TV region would greatly increase the number of applications each of the 10 A League schools received, with constant exposure along the entire east coast and dominating the rest of the country. Academic rankings, selectivity, donations, and endowments would rise.

This also improves the Big East as a new better allsports 12 team BCS league with great TV markets, balance, football, basketball, and revenue. North division with Connecticut, Pitt, Rutgers, WVU, Marshall, Cincinnati; south division with NCSU, Wake, Clemson, VT, Louisville, East Carolina.

Remaining Big East schools should form a powerful Catholic basketball league with great TV markets: Georgetown, Villanova, St. Johns, Providence, Seton Hall, Notre Dame, Marquette, Depaul, Xavier, and St. Louis.

ACC and Big East are the only BCS conferences in the nation with schools that lose millions overall on athletics, while the Big 10, Big 12, PAC 10, and SEC, each make tens of millions, and even the Mountain West, Independents, and 117 average div.IA schools makes money overall. According to a 2/9/03 Orlando Sentinel article, Big East athletic programs lost $12.8 million in 2002-03, ACC lost $2.2 million, while the SEC made a whopping $81.7 million. The ACC is distant 2nd of 2 conferences in the southeast in football, basketball, overall sports, and revenue. The Big East is just a complete mess with different members for football and basketball and constant rumors of demise. The ACC and Big East are the two youngest, weakest, most unfair, disunited, and unstable BCS conferences.

One of the biggest problems with the ACC and Big East is the unfairness of conference tourney location. 43 of 50 ACC mens basketball tourneys have been in the state of NC, and 43 of 50 have been won by NC schools, obviously not a coincidence. Local NC fans buy tickets from fans of losing teams so UNC or NCSU can have 8-1 fan advantages and as high as 5-1 even in the first round, which is why those 2 built their programs at the expense of others and won as many ACC titles as all 7 others combined. First 22 ACC tourneys were in NC with 21 of 22 won by carolina schools, UNC has won all of its last 12 ACC semifinals, while Maryland lost 10 of its last 11 semifinals, including during its national title year. UVA hasn't won an ACC tourney game since 95, GT lost in 2nd round in 01 and lost in 1st round every other year since 97, Clemson lost in 1st round last 5 years and in 18 of last 22 tourneys, FSU lost in 2nd round its first year in 92 and lost in 1st round all 11 years since then. Studies show that referees are affected by home crowds making it almost impossible for visiting teams to win 3 or 4 in a row on the road, plus ACC refs probably live in NC and headquarters is in Greensboro. ACC was formed to be a small regional basketball league, not a national or eastern or even southeastern sports power.

Atlantic League should move its conference basketball tourney between 4 locations every year, Continental Arena in NJ/NYC, MCI Center in DC, Charlotte Coliseum, and Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg. Either that or play it in domed stadiums seating 46,000 in Atlanta, St. Petersburg, and any of the 3 planned in NYC for the Jets, Mets, and Yankees, since the ACC tourney in Atlanta drew 40,000. The womens basketball tourney could even be played at the same time in the same location as the mens tourney, if that would increase interest and revenue. A League tourney should be during spring break for all schools, so everyone from students on spring break to retirees and local and other alums and their families, can attend and watch 9 or 18 great games over 4 or 5 days in great vacation destinations. These changes maximize fairness, attendance, revenue, and exposure in key areas, for the premier sport and conference in the country.

As for conference football champ game revenue, that's insignificant considering all 10 teams plays 11-13+ games each every year. 12 team leagues SEC and Big 12 shouldn't be allowed to play any more games than any other league's teams so should be banned from playing preseason kickoff classic type games which should only be played by 10 team or less leagues like new Atlantic League, Big 10, or PAC 10. So revenue before or after the season wouldn't make any difference for any conference.

There are too many ACC schools in one small media market and state, Duke and UNC are national powers but the rest hold the league back and leech revenue from the others without contributing. Clemson has 15-20 NCAA violations every year and the worst academics in the ACC. NCSU also never did anything without cheating and is notorious for recruiting players like Chris Washburn with 470 SATs. Wake Forest has almost no fanbase, and football is 116th of 117 div.IA programs in alltime win percentage even while playing in a weak ACC.

Syracuse just won the mens basketball national title and has the biggest stadium in the world which is the only college dome, has the best lacrosse in the nation with 8 titles, 15 straight winning seasons in last 16 years in football, and NY location. Boston College is the only div.IA school in the country with a whole huge region New England all to itself and has great academics and potential in all sports including hockey national titles. Miami has 5 football national titles and 4 in baseball, along with good basketball and recruiting and potential. Penn State has the biggest school and stadium and best football tradition in east and national titles, and great overall sports. UMD has national titles in basketball and football and 7 in the last 8 years in womens lacrosse, and has both of ACC's 2 biggest markets. UVA is the top public school with great overall athletics and recruiting and potential and 4 mens soccer national titles. Duke is the best basketball school in the country with best academics in ACC and great overall athletics which is more nationally televised than any other. UNC has the top selling logo in the country and great basketball and overall sports including 17 womens soccer national titles. GT is the nation's best public tech school with 4 football national titles and key Atlanta location. FSU has 2 football national titles and great baseball and potential in all sports.

Conferences are always evolving, constantly adding and dropping schools, the link below shows that every major and minor conference has had multiple changes over the years, lots of teams leave for better conferences and more money:

www.angelfire.com/sports/...story.html

ACC and Big East have the worst traditions among the 6 major BCS conferences, and are the two weakest overall, that along with the gap between the haves and have nots in each conference and the worse than communist distribution agreement and archaic and reactionary voting system and unfair conference tourney location and unwieldy distribution with each concentrated in just part of the coast and ACC concentrated in just one small market, etc., make those 2 the most unstable conferences.

ACC is like the old Southwest Conference which had 8 Texas schools plus Arkansas shortly before it disbanded in 96. Mountain West's 8 schools left in 99 to form a profitable conference after earning almost all the revenue in 16 team WAC which lost money.

All conferences change, and schools are always looking to be in better leagues, preferably the best, but if they ever do get in the best like the Ivy League, they never leave and have no reason to. Atlantic League would dominate the east with half the US population and more than half the media and money and be free from the mediocre and unfair past history of the ACC and Big East. The first conference of the third millennium would be the best in every sport and every way, immediately and forever.

The ACC was formed in 1953 when 7 schools left the Southern Conference, which itself was formed in 1921 by 14 members of the 30 member Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association. The Southern Conference has had 41 different members and changed several times, like when 13 of 23 members left to form the SEC. Southern Conference used to have schools like Washington and Lee, University of the South, and Wake Forest, obviously that doesn't mean those schools are worthy of being in top conferences now.

www.soconsports.com/secti...typeid=139

With increasing parity across the nation and the rise of sports as big business, conference success is determined by TV regions, fan bases, and recruiting territories, since Big 10, SEC, PAC 10, and Big 12, is better in each of those things, it is not surprising all of them have improved and will continue to improve while the ACC has fallen and can't last. ACC has most schools in and around one state and even including outliers only takes up one third of the strip of land along one coast, SEC by contrast has an entire quadrant of America, Big 10 TV region stretches from midwest to midatlantic and northeast, Big 12 dominates the heartland, PAC 10 the entire west, etc.

Not only is the ACC mediocre to terrible in everything, including basketball, football, and overall sports, according to SI, ESPN, Sporting News, USA Today, Sears, Sagarin, computers, Vitale, ACC media, national media, fans, and recruits, the league has never been close to balanced or fair, in any way. ACC splits TV and postseason revenue equally, so schools like Wake, Clemson, and NCSU, which are mediocre to horrendous in everything and have small fan bases and second or worse tier status among recruits and no TV draw, steal millions from powers like Duke which has an annual $5M athletic deficit despite being the most nationally televised program in the country, as well as FSU, UNC, UMD, UVA, GT, etc., each and every year, and this has caused lots of unrest and bad feelings. The only way to correct this injustice is for the top programs in the east to form a league with no weak links, where every school and athletic program contributes.

The 4 NC schools are bad in football, Duke's share of the ACC title in 89 which was bogus because Duke lost to the cochamp UVA is the only one by any NC school in over 20 years, so the out of state ACC schools have dominated for decades and will continue to. The reason for this is, with 5 div.IA football programs in NC, there isn't enough talent to go around and every program suffers. Wake's alltime win percentage is 116th of 117 div.IA program, dead last among BCS schools even while in a lame conference, and must sell out academics and title IX just to have a team as the smallest div.IA BCS school in the country, all NC programs would benefit if they dropped football. NCSU has the second worst football history in NC according to cfrc.com. Clemson has 15 NCAA violations every year and never accomplished anything without cheating. By contrast, the 4 NC schools have combined to win 43 of 50 ACC basketball tourney titles with 43 of 50 being played in NC, compared to only 6 titles for the other 5 ACC schools combined.

All of these problems can be fixed while making a new conference best in the country in every way instead of distant second of 2 in southeast. Syracuse, BC, and Miami, should switch with NCSU, Wake, and Clemson, this would benefit all schools involved because they would be more competitive in their new conferences, athletically, academically, and in every other way. Penn State should join as the Atlantic League's 10th member instead of being 11th in the Big 10/11, again every school and conference benefits because B10 returns to sensible schedules playing everyone every year in football and all sports like they used to and back to 10 in midwest, while the biggest eastern school and athletic program joins the others to form the best and most profitable conference in the nation.

Atlantic League with Syracuse, BC, Miami, Penn State, Maryland, UVA, Duke, UNC, GT, and FSU, would be much improved in every way with no downsides, be the best in the nation in every way, basketball, football, overall sports, rivalries, fun, academics, prestige, recruiting, fan base, TV, exposure, revenue, etc., doubling or tripling everything, and dominate the east with half the US population and recruits and more than half the media and money, as well as the rest of the nation.
 
Deep Blue, It is obvious that you are a Duke fan by the way you salivate at the mention of the Blue Devils (I need a towel). I can assure you that Georgia Tech is much more likely to hitch its wagon to the Clemson Tigers than Dook or NC. Since when is Duke one of the most powerful programs in the nation? Just because you are good at basketball? I don't give a flip about basketball. If you hadn't noticed, college football is the king of college sports.
Why would we let Duke and NC destroy an alligence with Miami, Syracuse and BC and our other ACC bretheren only to join them in another conference?
As far as Clemson goes, I would bet the Tigers draw more in a single game (82,000+) than Dook does in a season (it would at least be close). That's power and I at least enjoy the Clemson game. I can't remember ever enjoying a Duke football game. Usually that's the one that if you need to schedule something else to do you pick that weekend to do it. Duke = Boring
Duke, NC and to a certain extent, UVA are currently in the process of trying to set their bridges on fire with FSU, Clemson and Georgia Tech on the opposite shore. Let's hope they succeed.
Coach K does not run the ACC nor does the NC faithful that are worried about getting their precious basketball tourney allotments. They are not getting their way so they are going to hold their breath until they turn blue(r)or get their way. I say its time for FSU, Clemson and GT to take their ball and go to someone else's yard to play. We could market ourselves to Miami, Penn State, VT, Pitt and WV or approach the SEC about expansion. In any case, if there is a split, I guarantee you that Duke and NC will not be coming with us.

soapbox.gif
 
Back
Top