Miami tipping off their offensive plays?

This leads to a fascinating discussion. The Patriots were fined for stealing signals with a video camera, but the positions of the players on the grass are part of the game intended to be seen by all. So is there anything stopping us from building a neural network model that picks up on what they're about to do by watching the twitching of the tight end or the distance between the RB and QB?
 
Flywheel said:
This leads to a fascinating discussion. The Patriots were fined for stealing signals with a video camera, but the positions of the players on the grass are part of the game intended to be seen by all. So is there anything stopping us from building a neural network model that picks up on what they're about to do by watching the twitching of the tight end or the distance between the RB and QB?
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I used to know what play Chan and Nix were going to run.
1) off tackle left.
2) off tackle right.
3) incomplete pass or draw play
4) punt
 
Flywheel said:
This leads to a fascinating discussion. The Patriots were fined for stealing signals with a video camera, but the positions of the players on the grass are part of the game intended to be seen by all. So is there anything stopping us from building a neural network model that picks up on what they're about to do by watching the twitching of the tight end or the distance between the RB and QB?
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With as much money is in college football, I'm surprised there aren't consultants already doing this. Having a catalog of every programs tendencies would be very valuable.

I also think it's more common than people think. There are definitely more than a few ways players and their positions, movements and stances give away information about the play before the snap. And I'm talking about what is beyond the obvious information.
 
Buzzilla said:
With as much money is in college football, I'm surprised there aren't consultants already doing this. Having a catalog of every programs tendencies would be very valuable.

I also think it's more common than people think. There are definitely more than a few ways players and their positions, movements and stances give away information about the play before the snap. And I'm talking about what is beyond the obvious information.
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But how do you make use of that information real time? Are you signaling to a player? How's he getting the word around? Not a lot of defensive pre-snap movement. Not a lot of looking at sidelines. Things move too fast. The only way I see to use it is in game prep prior to gameday. We had guys scouting teams' tendencies back in HS. That is not new. Sure, with modern optics you can pick up micro movements, but you can't with the eye on the field. I'm doubtful that most down linemen can even see whether an RB is less than or greater than 1.5 yards behind the QB. They're watching the ball for movement.
 
stinger78 said:
But how do you make use of that information real time? Are you signaling to a player? How's he getting the word around? Not a lot of defensive pre-snap movement. Not a lot of looking at sidelines. Things move too fast. The only way I see to use it is in game prep prior to gameday. We had guys scouting teams' tendencies back in HS. That is not new. Sure, with modern optics you can pick up micro movements, but you can't with the eye on the field. I'm doubtful that most down linemen can even see whether an RB is less than or greater than 1.5 yards behind the QB. They're watching the ball for movement.
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True.

But one players tendency could be enough. A friend of mine noticed many years ago that one of our offensive linemen tipped off run or pass with the position of his feet. I can't remember exactly but I think it was during the Gailey era. That's a pretty obvious tell that everyone on the defense can pick up quickly if they know to look for it and have a plan to communicate it within the defense on the field. Hand or specific word signals could be used for example to communicate it and then changed up during the game to conceal it.

If the tell is there, and made fully aware in advance of the game, communication to the team and a way to take advantage of it shouldn't be that difficult.

One play could be enough. Giving a secondary defender an extra heads up about a high probability of play coming to a certain spot or receiver could be enough to result in a pick six and change the outcome of the game.
 
00Burdell said:
Another thing. If we "caught on" to what Miami was doing as the game went on then why is Miami's score by QTR 0-3-7-10. Seems to me it would have gone in the opposite direction: 10-7-3-0. I' chalking this one up to nothingburger. Miami played 4 creampuffs before we showed up and punched them in the mouth.
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Side note... just because you know they are going to run/pass, you still have to defend it. We also gave them some short fields to score on in the 2nd half. Here's a more telling stat, and it seems to me maybe someone was made aware of it at halftime:

1st half - Miami 20 rushes for 100 yards - 5 ypc
2nd half - Miami 27 rushes for 65 yards - 2.4 ypc

Much easier to defend the run when you know it's coming.
 
Buzzilla said:
True.

But one players tendency could be enough. A friend of mine noticed many years ago that one of our offensive linemen tipped off run or pass with the position of his feet. I can't remember exactly but I think it was during the Gailey era. That's a pretty obvious tell that everyone on the defense can pick up quickly if they know to look for it and have a plan to communicate it within the defense on the field. Hand or specific word signals could be used for example to communicate it and then changed up during the game to conceal it.

If the tell is there, and made fully aware in advance of the game, communication to the team and a way to take advantage of it shouldn't be that difficult.

One play could be enough. Giving a secondary defender an extra heads up about a high probability of play coming to a certain spot or receiver could be enough to result in a pick six and change the outcome of the game.
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Foot position is definitely one you watch, as well as weight distribution. That was one issue with CPJ's system. With the setup so far forward to fire out low, it made backing up into pass pro take just a half-second longer, which gave a good DE just the time he needed to rip his way past him.
 
I have a good friend that is the OC for a Power 5 team. The year the dwags came to Atlanta for the Jasper Thanks fumble game, he was OC for a JUCO team and his season was over so he came to the game with me. He took a pair of binoculars and from my seats in the next to the top row of the old north stands had gotten our signals and was calling each play before the ball was snapped. I think this is much ado about nothing.
 
gt2690b said:
If only we could have figured out bowling greens tell
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I strongly believe that they figured out ours! Seemed like every play they called, on offense, went exactly to the weakest zone of our defense. Poor tackling didn't help, but I think that they were reading our defense like a book!
 
I recall a story about a GT linebacker that figured out, early in a game, which direction the opponents play was going (Wishbone Offense) by the alignment of the Fullback's feet. I don't remember the opponent, but I think that it was during Coach Bobby Dodd's years. Anyway, it help us limit the opponents offensive output and helped us win the game.

I think it might have been in the "Dodd's Luck" book.
 
stinger78 said:
But how do you make use of that information real time? Are you signaling to a player? How's he getting the word around?
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When we had a pre-snap read we tapped our hip. Left or right, hi or low for pass or run. Hand behind back for up middle. Not everybody got it but 4-5-6 players getting a jump on a play sure does help a bunch. Other games it was fingers. Sometimes we switched mid-game but if they were dumb enough to tell you the play they were generally so dumb they couldn’t pick up adjustment signals.

The rest was just what you were coached to do on a given play.
 
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