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Yeah, but...

"If he denied him access to water, that's really, really serious," said CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. "I can see the case moving forward."
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Not only is denying athletes access to water during conditioning dangerous, it's dumb from a strength and conditioning standpoint. It doesn't provide any training benefit.

If indeed the guy was denied access to water, then yeah, there's definitely a case, and yeah, the coach is a complete dumbass.

This:
The parents have filed a wrongful death lawsuit against six coaches at the school. The suit claims they were negligent in their actions and that more than 20 minutes passed between the time Max Gilpin collapsed and the time one of the coaches called paramedics, according to WHAS.
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...isn't that big a deal, IMO. I used to ref soccer, and if we had a kid suffer from heat prostration, I wouldn't call the freaking paramedics. You put him in the shade, make him drink lots of water, and throw some wet wash cloths on his knees and neck.
 
beej67 said:
Yeah, but...

Not only is denying athletes access to water during conditioning dangerous, it's dumb from a strength and conditioning standpoint. It doesn't provide any training benefit.

If indeed the guy was denied access to water, then yeah, there's definitely a case, and yeah, the coach is a complete dumbass.
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Not to mention the fact that they waited 20 minutes to call the paramedics...
 
If the kid had a body temp of 107, then paramedics should have been called anyways. Anything over 103 can cause permanent brain damage.
 
gt_white_gold said:
If the kid had a body temp of 107, then paramedics should have been called anyways. Anything over 103 can cause permanent brain damage.
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How the hell is the coach supposed to know he has a body temp of 107?

Anyone who has had any sort of first aid training can tell you the steps you should take when it appears someone is suffering from heat exhaustion, and it doesn't include calling an ambulance. Usually you put them in the shade, get them a ton of water, and cool them off with cold water towels and maybe ice.

Then if they're still not doing too good you take them to a hospital. Sorry, but waiting 20 minutes to call an ambulance doesn't mean they did anything wrong.
 
Not to hijack the thread, but I read an interesting tidbit about football in the early 20th century. According to Uncle John's Supremely Satisfying Bathroom Reader:

Twenty-one people died playing football druing the 1904 season; another 23 would die the following year. Only a handful of those killed had been playing on college teams--the majority had been playing on semi-pro teams.
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We've come a long way in the game of football. Players are better trained, coached, protected and cared for. Still, accidents happen.
 
Think football was almost outlawed in the early days due to all the deaths. Congress, under pressure from Teddy Roosevelt, almost passed a law banning football except I think a mother of one student killed during a football game made a passionate speech to block any law making football illegal. (cannot find the info on the mom right now, but believe that was part of the story as well)

http://divisionoflabour.com/archives/001958.php

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH1981/JSH0803/jsh0803b.pdf

Edit: Ah, found the mom's name: von Gammon -- but it was the Georgia legislature she pled to keep from banning the sport.
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1988/6/1988_6_102.shtml
 
i have asthma. had it all my life. played football in Georgia. in the dirt, in the ragweed. 2-a-days in the heat of August with 101* fever... i never died b/c i got water when i needed it.

once a coach told me that i couldnt get water. you know what i did. i went and got water, caught my breath and then told him why i did it. i ran extra laps b/c i disobeyed him, but guess what? i lived.

the kids should get water when they realize that they really need it and deal with the consequences. if they feel its unfair, then they can sue the coach for making them run extra laps instead of for ending up a dead kid
 
Surprisingly, there are still a number of knuckleheads that harken back to the "getting water is a sign of weakness" training days. And simply don't understand the science of hydration.

Yeah, the coach sounds like a dumbass and could be in some bigtime trouble if the kid was denied water.
 
BuzzCzar said:
i have asthma. had it all my life. played football in Georgia. in the dirt, in the ragweed. 2-a-days in the heat of August with 101* fever... i never died b/c i got water when i needed it.

once a coach told me that i couldnt get water. you know what i did. i went and got water, caught my breath and then told him why i did it. i ran extra laps b/c i disobeyed him, but guess what? i lived.

the kids should get water when they realize that they really need it and deal with the consequences. if they feel its unfair, then they can sue the coach for making them run extra laps instead of for ending up a dead kid
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No reason a kid should have to run extra laps for something like that. Especially given your situation.

Not saying we need to breed football players to be anything other than tough, but there is a line that must be drawn
 
I didn't play football, but I did march in the band back in the 1970's and we were on the field on the same hot days that our football players were practicing. We may not have been running, but we were marching in place, doing drills and standing in the hot sun and we didn't have the access to the water that our players & band members get today and we seemed to all make it without any heat-related deaths. I don't know what the deal is with today's players & the water thing. When my daughter marched a few years ago, those kids carried water bottles with them and drank as they wished, but got breaks to sit in the shade every 20 minutes on extremely hot days.
 
During our band camp in 2007, the heat was HORRIBLE here in Statesboro. Our camp lasted 10 days, and I would say at least 4 of those got up over 100*. We were given a 15 minute break for every 75 minutes of work. If you wanted to carry a water bottle with you, that's fine but you better be able to play your part and carry it at the same time.

It was miserable.
 
Excuse me, I do not live in the real world, I work for the Navy. We have medical personnel within walking distance most of the time. Sometimes I forget how things work on the other side of the fence. All I really meant was that the kid needed medical attention, and a person would be able to tell that his temp was significantly above normal.

Just so you know, I am also trained in first aid. I was a stretcher bearer on the ship, which is who is called along with the Corpsmen to respond to medical casualties onboard ships.

Not so much now though since I am on shore duty. Security is generally first response here and Corpsmen and Doctors do any necessary additional treatment.
 
I read all the posts before I read the article and just assumed the boy's parents had sued the school (which is probably what will happen next). I had no idea this was a criminal case. Good golly.

There would have to be some pretty significant evidence for me to find a coach guilty of homicide....

Its one thing to tell a kid, "no, go in and play and you can get your water after the next play," and its another to see a kid in need of water and tell him to spit and swallow.

But really, parents don't send their kids out to high school football to die of exhaustion. This should never ever ever happen. Litigious society? No doubt, but to the credit of the fall of common sense.
 
GT98 said:
Surprisingly, there are still a number of knuckleheads that harken back to the "getting water is a sign of weakness" training days. And simply don't understand the science of hydration.

Yeah, the coach sounds like a dumbass and could be in some bigtime trouble if the kid was denied water.
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That describes my high school coach who did everything wrong by today's standards (warmups, motivation, drills, tackling)...including no water during scorching practices. But we all understood why he was such a pompous dumbass. He played at UGA...under Wally Butts, no less. :ugh:
 
BuzzLaw said:
I had no idea this was a criminal case. Good golly.
...
There would have to be some pretty significant evidence for me to find a coach guilty of homicide....
e.
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no doubt! i dont see a way to claim "criminally negligent" either, considering that there were about (my guess) 30-40 other kids who did exactly the same physical exercises and did NOT die. that pretty much shows that one could not really consider the acts to be foreseable to lead to death or serious injury.

also, all of the kids describe the coach as a loving father figure - not some awfully mean bastard trying to prove he's as bad as the Bear or something

probably a prosecutor trying to make headlines in advance of a run for office
 
gsu_paintballer said:
No reason a kid should have to run extra laps for something like that. Especially given your situation.

Not saying we need to breed football players to be anything other than tough, but there is a line that must be drawn
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i see what you are saying, gsu, but i could and probably should have handled it better
i didnt tell the coaches up front about it, i really didnt want to give them any reason to have any strike against me. he likely would have let me go if i had spoken to him in advance. but i didnt really want special treatment

i wanted to be on the team. that required certain things. it was up to me to make it possible for myself to live up to the expectations. if i thought i could do it with asthma, then i can try, but i shouldnt really get special conditions to do so. i understood that. i also understood that if you go against what the coach tells you to do, then you better be ready to face the consequenses

we had one LB run extra banks (running up an hill in a sprint) because instead of staying home as per his assignment, he rushed the gap. nevermind that he tackled the RB for a 3-yd loss - he played the wrong defense, and just got lucky. at the higher levels you can allow for some individualism and special treatment, but not so much in HS

so i didnt mind running some extra for having disobeyed a direct order.
 
beej67 said:
I used to ref soccer, and if we had a kid suffer from heat prostration, I wouldn't call the freaking paramedics. You put him in the shade, make him drink lots of water, and throw some wet wash cloths on his knees and neck.
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No offense, but I'm not sure how much faith the courts would put in the medical opinion of a one-time soccer ref.
 
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