National Report Card

[18in32]

Regarding #2, do you really think "forgiveness" of debt touted by the left would result in the banks losing out? We would all be bailing the banks out with taxes, and they'd carry on as usual. It happened in the mortgage crisis, which not surprisingly was also caused by public policy making it too easy for people to take on debt.

A fair concern — but not a necessary effect of what I proposed. We bailed out many banks after the mortgage crisis, but they nevertheless reduced their lending to minority communities (which, natch, has gotten them in trouble again!).

 

[GTCrew]

or

The contrast is instructive. Which of these two posters is not a lawyer and knows it? And which is not a lawyer but thinks he is?

Crew, I welcome your efforts to explain the Griggs-effect to me. Once again, here's the direct quote from the opinion:

Apparently your superiorness didnt include recognizing TiA's sarcasm.

I do not know where you get that silly spin quote from. The facts of Griggs was that you cant use an aptitude test any more. Full stop. There is no way to get an aptitude test past the disparate impact test.

Griggs left college degrees as the only tool standing for a company to defend hiring and promoting competent individuals.

 

[18in32]

Apparently your superiorness didnt include recognizing TiA's sarcasm.

I do not know where you get that silly spin quote from. The facts of Griggs was that you cant use an aptitude test any more. Full stop. There is no way to get an aptitude test past the disparate impact test.

Griggs left college degrees as the only tool standing for a company to defend hiring and promoting competent individuals.

Um, that silly spin quote is in the majority opinion written by Chief Justice Berger. (And you can get an aptitude test past the disparate impact test, as anyone applying for a job in tech can tell you. I've got a (white) relative in a mid-level management position at Google who doesn't have a college degree. You are simply required to demonstrate that the requirements of the position justify the aptitude test. Something that can't be done for most civil service positions — which should tell you something about the govt and its work!)

 

[LegendaryGT]

For the record, my post was not sarcasm. I'm going to do some better research on Griggs to see whether my understanding truly was flawed and if so what the cause is of the effect I outlined. I'm not ruling anything out, but I'm not going to pretend to be an expert.

 

[18in32]

For the record, my post was not sarcasm. I'm going to do some better research on Griggs to see whether my understanding truly was flawed and if so what the cause is of the effect I outlined. I'm not ruling anything out, but I'm not going to pretend to be an expert.

To be clear, I think Griggs is a horrible decision. It is enshrined the idea that individual employers are responsible legally for the effects of statistical racial disparity. Racial disparity which none of us can adequately explain the origin of or remedy for.

I’m just not clear on the connection between that principal and the current education disaster. But I welcome thoughts to the contrary, I’m not invested on this.

 

[LegendaryGT]

To be clear, I think Griggs is a horrible decision. It is enshrined the idea that individual employers are responsible legally for the effects of statistical racial disparity. Racial disparity which none of us can adequately explain the origin of or remedy for.

To be sure. The disparate impact principle is about equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity. That alone is sufficient reason to dislike it.

 

[jacket67]

My father always liked to say, "Education is the only thing that people will pay for, and be happy if they don't get." As long as schools continue to have revenue to pay the teachers and administrators without being held to some standard of performance outcome, the situation will just get worse. Allowing students to pay tuition with expected future earnings and government grants further removes normal principles of consumer demands from the equation, and contributes to the out-of-control inflation in tuition and fees.

 

[BigDanT]

The public education system doesn't teach anymore, it's nothing more than test preparation.

Public school teacher here. I promise you we are teaching our ass off. Parents and kids suck. Especially the ones in America. Parents don’t stay on top of kids grades and work ethic. And most minority parents don’t emphasize the importance of education to the kids. The future is illiterate and stupid. Sorry bout it

 

[GTCrew]

Public school teacher here. I promise you we are teaching our ass off. Parents and kids suck. Especially the ones in America. Parents don’t stay on top of kids grades and work ethic. And most minority parents don’t emphasize the importance of education to the kids. The future is illiterate and stupid. Sorry bout it

There is a heck of a grain of truth to the lyric "Only stupid people are breeding".

As to Griggs, 18, that doesnt say what you think it says. The case was about aptitude tests and high school diplomas. Not college degrees.

One anecdote about an uncle is irrelevant. College degrees absolutely replaced aptitude tests and diplomas as the means to screen employees without being sued for disparate impact.

 

[18in32]

As to Griggs, 18, that doesnt say what you think it says. The case was about aptitude tests and high school diplomas. Not college degrees.

One anecdote about an uncle is irrelevant. College degrees absolutely replaced aptitude tests and diplomas as the means to screen employees without being sued for disparate impact.

Gotcha. My anecdote about a family member (not an uncle, BTW) is irrelevant. Your unsubstantiated impressions of general workplace practices, on the other hand, carry the day.

I can't believe I let you Tom Sawyer me into doing more research, but I did — and Griggs was interpreted to apply to any employment qualification, including college degrees, professional certifications, etc. – just like the Chief Justice said. Surprise surprise.

"It is well established, however, that a prima facie case [of discrimination] may be made through evidence that an employment test or qualification has as a consequence an exclusionary effect on minority applicants."

"Thus, when a plaintiff is claiming that the criteria used by a company in screening job applicants discriminate against a minority group, he need only establish that the use of such criteria has a discriminatory result. ... When a job requires a small amount of skill and training and the consequences of hiring an unqualified applicant are insignificant, the courts should examine closely any pre-employment standard or criteria which discriminate against minorities."

"The record contains ample evidence that the college degree requirement, not adopted until 1968, rendered ineligible for employment a markedly disproportionate number of Negroes . . . . Griggs v. Duke Power Co., 401 U.S. 424, 429 (1971). The defendants failed to prove that the requirement was justified by business necessity."

I certainly think we're all correct that college degrees have become vastly more important 'markers' and 'signals' for most jobs than they were 40 years ago. That's probably because we've dumbed down secondary schools for political and cultural reasons, but that's a hugely complex question and well beyond the point of our disagreement.

 

[18in32]

Public school teacher here. I promise you we are teaching our ass off. Parents and kids suck. Especially the ones in America. Parents don’t stay on top of kids grades and work ethic. And most minority parents don’t emphasize the importance of education to the kids. The future is illiterate and stupid. Sorry bout it

Boy, I wish more of our talking heads had the courage to say this. I think the idea that schools are failing due to lazy teachers is way over blown. With any protected group, you're going to have the normal distributions of humanity's flaws – some hard-to-fire teachers are going to work hard because they take pride in their job, care about their students, etc. Others are going to slack off because why not.

But what no one is willing to say is that when parents don't emphasize their child's academic performance, it is really hard for the teachers at school to overcome that natural 'at home' drag.

The reason for the silence on this is presumably the fear of being caught in the culture wars crossfire — are you saying working moms should feel guilty? are you saying blacks don't love their kids? do you believe life was better in 1850? etc. — but as with most problems, the solution starts by looking in the mirror.

 

[GoldZ]

Public school teacher here. I promise you we are teaching our ass off. Parents and kids suck. Especially the ones in America. Parents don’t stay on top of kids grades and work ethic. And most minority parents don’t emphasize the importance of education to the kids. The future is illiterate and stupid. Sorry bout it

Agree mostly, but are public school teachers flunking the tar out of the slackers!?

What makes the study I started the thread with, much worse, is a sampling of the questions to determine minimum standards. Political correctness is the cake, but dumbing down is the icing. 18in32's post above is right on.

 

[GTCrew]

Agree mostly, but are public school teachers flunking the tar out of the slackers!?

What makes the study I started the thread with, much worse, is a sampling of the questions to determine minimum standards. Political correctness is the cake, but dumbing down is the icing. 18in32's post above is right on.

From what I am seeing, they dont really flunk kids anymore, in terms of holding them back.

 

[GTCrew]

Gotcha. My anecdote about a family member (not an uncle, BTW) is irrelevant. Your unsubstantiated impressions of general workplace practices, on the other hand, carry the day.

I can't believe I let you Tom Sawyer me into doing more research, but I did — and Griggs was interpreted to apply to any employment qualification, including college degrees, professional certifications, etc. – just like the Chief Justice said. Surprise surprise.







I certainly think we're all correct that college degrees have become vastly more important 'markers' and 'signals' for most jobs than they were 40 years ago. That's probably because we've dumbed down secondary schools for political and cultural reasons, but that's a hugely complex question and well beyond the point of our disagreement.

I could post a hundred links that say the opposite. I am sure you stumbled over them in your quest to find a handful that say college degrees fall afoul of Griggs.

It isnt just me saying it. And statistics show it as well. But I'm not really interested in arguing over this, so if anyone else is interested, they can look it up and decide for themselves.

 

[18in32]

I could post a hundred links that say the opposite.

I am sure you stumbled over them in your quest to find a handful that say college degrees fall afoul of Griggs.

Actually those were the first three cases returned when I searched for Griggs and college degrees. Whatevs. Peace —

 

[LegendaryGT]

Someone getting HQ gif'd by 18in32 strikes me as a notable event in StinGTalk history.

 

[texstinger]

Sad, very sad. And yet, GT is expected to compete in D-I football. The President of the Institute was right in the late 60s as we withdrew from the SEC with wtte: Nobody and I mean nobody is attempting to do what Georgia Tech is in major college football. Still aren't imo. And yes, this is much more important than football.

https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams

Harrison was an idiot.

What he was attempting to do was actually continue to make money by selling out Grant Field, while at the same time fostering a stupid elitist mentality, and not investing the money back in the program like everyone else.

He expected people to continue buying tickets, while at the same time having facilities that were becoming outdated and filthy. The worst homeless shelters in Atlanta had cleaner restrooms than he allowed at Grant Field.

What a bum and fraud.

 

[GoldZ]

Harrison was an idiot.

What he was attempting to do was actually continue to make money by selling out Grant Field, while at the same time fostering a stupid elitist mentality, and not investing the money back in the program like everyone else.

He expected people to continue buying tickets, while at the same time having facilities that were becoming outdated and filthy. The worst homeless shelters in Atlanta had cleaner restrooms than he allowed at Grant Field.

What a bum and fraud.

Perhaps, but the quote I posted was true then and true today.

 

[18in32]

Someone getting HQ gif'd by 18in32 strikes me as a notable event in StinGTalk history.

"HQ gif'd"?

 

[85jacket]

I enjoyed the article and was alarmed at the percentages. I think America was better educated in the late 1800's and early 1900's than today.
Culture has vastly changed in the last fifty years. Children have to have examples to follow, educated begets educated. Read, read and read more,
teach kids not to be afraid of analytics. I have said that what TECH does with their athletes is absolutely amazing, but it proves that there is not an
intellectual deficit, just a desire deficit.