Our "tougher" entrance requirements

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Buzzed

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Our \"tougher\" entrance requirements

Many excuses are regularly bantered about here to justify losses or our regular predicament as a middle of the road football program. We accuse the better teams of running corrupt programs, buying players, and being "football factories" with all but no basis for the accusations other than somehow feeling better about ourselves after proclaiming such. We say that recruiting rankings don't matter and that our lightly regarded athletes can easily knock off the stockpiled programs because, well, just because…
The most common themes we regularly tout however is our tougher academic environment. More specifically we regularly hear that we cannot recruit the same athletes as everyone else. My question is, "Why not?" Aren't all of our rivals governed by the same NCAA as we? Completely aside from the issues of calculus, our lack of appealing women, and our urban campus difficulties, in what way are we regulated differently than any other school in NCAA's Division 1? Where is written that an athlete than is full qualifier to attend any D1 school in America has to meet a more stringent and challenging entrance criteria just for Georgia Tech than the country's other large academic institutions?
True, we have a more limited curriculum and the difficulty of staying in our school is a real issue, but strictly in terms of the more lax admissions requirements that we already afford guys that can run and jump, what specifically are the firm standards we have that are different than what you see at other ACC or SEC schools?
 
All students, including football players must have

four maths. Algebra 1, Algebra 11, Geometry and a higher math.

There might be others, but this one alone eliminates most SAa.
 
Re: All students, including football players must have

How is that different than most required academia in Georgia high schools? Are you saying that the state-mandated high school graduation requirements are not good enough for Georgia Tech?
 
Hmmmmmmm.....

Yes, the mandated 'requirement' (see note #2) does not meet GT's standards. It does however meet UGA's. And it exceeds the requirements of the colleges we recruit against.

#1. Alabama, Clemson, USCe, and Auburn can all take students with three maths. So a high school kid in the Technical Ladder (as it was called when I was in school) can take General Math, Algebra 1 and Geometry and graduate and play for Clemson, etc. That is, IMHO, why you see a lot of very talented players that both UGA and GT ignore.

#2. To graduate in GA on the normal curriculum you have to take 4 maths. One can be General Math. If you have info that Trig or Calculus is required to graduate, feel free to set me straight.

#3. Very few southern states, if any, require four maths like GA does for normal students. So we can't get normal students from Tennessee or Alabama or South Carolina or Florida. Only the 'book smart' kids who took four maths instead of coasting with a free elective like home ec. or weightlifting or whatever.
 
Re: All students, including football players must have

In a word, yes, Ga state mandated graduation requirements are not good enough for Ga Tech.

If you're going to really get into this, I suggest you check the archives. This subject has been debated and researched many times. Or, simply go to a number of university web sites and check academic requirements. The fact is, our math requirements are tougher than almost any school you choose, basically because our curriculum is more limited and math oriented. Duke, Stanford, ND, etc...all have majors which don't require the level of math we do of HS students. It's a fact that's pretty easy to demonstrate. BTW, the NCAA requirements are also lower than Tech's. You can also look that up on the NCAA site.

That doesn't excuse bad football, but it does explain why recruiting at Tech is different than almost any other D-1A school.
 
Re: Hmmmmmmm.....

So your'e saying a typical star athlete from Florida must ignore Tech unless he knows well before he graduates that he wants to take the curriculum needed for our admissions requirements? In other words, you're saying that almost all Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, and South Carolina HS graduates cannot make a signing day decision, regardless of their SAT and GPA, to come to Tech?
 
Re: Our \"tougher\" entrance requirements

Thank you Buzzed and GT Crew too for a very good post and discussion. Questions and answers that I'm glad to see.
 
Re: Hmmmmmmm.....

[ QUOTE ]
So your'e saying a typical star athlete from Florida must ignore Tech unless he knows well before he graduates that he wants to take the curriculum needed for our admissions requirements? In other words, you're saying that almost all Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, and South Carolina HS graduates cannot make a signing day decision, regardless of their SAT and GPA, to come to Tech?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Also, GPA has to be 3.0(or close to it if their SAT is 950 or better). Oh, and that 3.0 has to be BEFORE their senior year in HS as GT doesn't count their SR year in their GPA.
That probably takes about 2/3 of ALL D1 student athletes out of the mix for GT.
 
Re: Hmmmmmmm.....

So getting excited about signing day is basically a waste of time for us as athletes that take a normal course load, graduate on time, have excellent grades, and have a high SAT score cannont sign with GT? Only those that pick Tech a year or so in advance so they'll have time to choose the tougher academic road in advance can consider us?
 
Re: Our \"tougher\" entrance requirements

Do I need to remind you that GT has quite the reputation for being a school that eats it students for lunch. Speaking from experience,GT does not even bend the rules, much less break them now that we have been placed on probation for the first time in history. You might find the article written in the New York Times about how some athletes get qualified very interesting. For someone who has gone through the recruiting process in a very personal way,I can tell you that it truly is a combination of things. To start with, GT does hold the SA's to a higher standard. Just because you are qualified by the NCAA Clearinghouse, that does in no way guarantee your entrance into GT. There are other differences besides the 4 maths, such as foreign language requirements. But the four maths is huge. Most student athletes don't take math their senior year. Why should they when based on my own research earlier in the year, the only team in the top ten (at that time) that required 4 maths was Georgia. What a shock! When these kids get an offer in the summer before their senior year, they still have time to get that 4th math. If they are not offered until the end of the football season, it is now almost impossible to even get the 4th math in. But why would they want to when they can go almost anywhere else without putting in all the work or worry about taking Calculus in college. My husband was in a conversation with George O'Leary and good old George implied that a student athlete with a 1000 on his SAT doesn't need to retake it unless he wants to go to an IVY league school! Are you starting to get the picture? I know a five star athlete from our high school, personally. You have to get into the head of a 17 athlete who is being courted by the best football factories in the country. You are kidding yourself if you think that less than 95% of those athletes are thinking about anything but getting to the NFL and they certainly will take the path of least resistance. They might say all the right things about a degree and all that, but if they really meant it 4/5 star SA's would be lined up waiting to get into GT. These are the facts, like them or not. I'm not saying that there are no exceptions, but we will continue to build our team primarily from 2/3 star athlete until other schools stop offering degrees like "Sports Studies" and "Recreation & Leisure". And what a job we have done with our recruiting classes. Based on our average recruiting class rankings for the past few years (I read somewhere that we have averaged around the 50th best classes in recent years)I doubt anyone would have ever predicted wins against ANY ranked teams. What a great accomplishment for our coaches! Remember this: The first thing a recruit hears when he tells someone he has been offered by GT is "boy, that is a tough school"! Man, if that doesn't scare them off immediately the points I made above will. If you are a 4/5 star athlete you likely have offers from almost every major football university in the country. Unless you have a death wish (academically) why would you choose GT? I know these words sound harsh, but if you haven't been through this process, you truly have no idea! I'm sorry for rambling on about this, but it is very frustrating when people just don't get it.
 
now you are getting it....

GT has to sign athletes that were going to college with or WITHOUT a scholarship.

Also do you understand that GT does not even allow visits from student/athletes UNTIL they are qualified.

If a student did not have it on the ball he could not even come and VISIT GT.

People may not like hearing it but GT can only recruit ~25% of the available recruits.
 
Re: Our \"tougher\" entrance requirements

[ QUOTE ]
based on my own research earlier in the year, the only team in the top ten (at that time) that required 4 maths was Georgia.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Georgia has similar entrance requirements as ours? How then are they able to sign kids that don't pick a school until the first Wednesday in February and we can't?
 
Well, the biggest difference for GT is you have to

have coaches with really good eyes for talent.

I really think this staff has some guys with great 'eyes'. Only VT does more with less 'stars'. Our players really look talented out there. Only in the VT game did we look overmatched. Then add to that the guys who O'Leary recruited but Chan & company moved positions and you might see why I think this staff has the eye for talent necessary to succeed at GT.

One scary think in College recruiting is how important connections are. In some ways, this works for us however because good kids on bad teams (and a lot of good academic high schools have sorry teams) are less likely to have the connections it takes to get offered by everyone and noticed by Rivals.

One last note. From what I gather, GT has a summer camp that I am convinced is instrumental to our success in landing great sleepers. So when I find out a two or one star was offered early and attended camp, I am as confident in that player as I am one with 3-4 stars and tons of offers.

Usually, these players look identical to the 3-4 star guys in the databases WRT size, speed and stats.

Think about it. Chan sees a kid play and run drills, he compares him in his mind to all the succesful players he has coached when they did the same drills. And the ones we have now! Mix in some film, and how can many 'sleepers' can Chan miss on?

Wisely, Chan does not allow Rivals/Insiders to attend our camp. We as GT fans must refuse to care about recruiting rankings. Putting pressure on Chan to fix what ain't broke (recruiting) for no legitimate reason whatsoever (recruiting rankings) is suicide IMHO.
 
The \'advanced math\' requirement is the key.

Imagine Les Bailey. He's a great athlete, but not too bright. He takes general math as a frosh and when it becomes clear he has Div 1 talent, he gets pressure to get through Algebra 1 and Geometry.

If UGA shows interest, do you think he won't work his way through Algebra 11 if Richt stresses the importance?

If GT shows interest, Chan would ask him to take Algebra 11 AND Trig/Precalc. Survey Says... XXX.
 
Re: The \'advanced math\' requirement is the key.

If we are then forced to sign primarily second tier players in terms of their athletic reputations, players that likely weren't being heavily recruited early in their high school careers, how then can we show up late in the process and expect a kid to rev up his curriculum late in his high school days so that he can meet standards well above what the NCAA requires? I can see how you could get to a top flight player that shows up on the radar screen as a HS sophomore or junior, but a late bloomer or lower tier athlete, which you suggest we are recruiting, would never have the time you say they need to have....
 
I guess I\'m not being clear.

There are many parents out there who put academics before athletics. Some of those parents have Div 1 caliber SAs. The staff has found a way to identify those who are Div 1 caliber. Some are well known and many are not. We hit on a few of the well known (Calvin, Grant, Peek and Scott) and a lot of the not well known (Vance Walker, Joe Anoai, Michael Johnson, Mike Cox etc)

It is obvious how good all these players are to anyone who takes the time to look, not just the ones like Scott and Grant who were heavily recruited early on. Chan did and apparently others did not. They are certainly not inferior in any way. Study the prep careers of our recruits. They are rarely 'late bloomers' and never would I describe them as lower tier athletes. In many cases they are standout basketball, baseball, wrestling or track stars.

We will never land many players who take General Math. They are unlikely to pass core classes at GT. We do not waste our time trying to make Leonard Pope into a GT man. Why should we when Vance Walkers and KaMichael Halls exist? It would be a waste of our recruiting resources to fight with UGA and FSU for him. But we fight for the David Greene and David Pollacks of the world and sometimes we lose.

All we are looking for is a few good men. They don't have to have Rival's eye. Just Chan's.
 
Re: The \'advanced math\' requirement is the key.

Couple of things to remember. First, kids can't really catch up if they aren't planning on college early in their HS career. We can take some exceptions (not all the required maths for example) but they will have to make it up at Tech. Meaning they will have to take whatever remedial math is required first and then calculus. All that and keep on track towards their degree per NCAA rules.

There are kids out there who can play and do the work. That's obvious from the kids we have in school now. Not all 4 and 5 star kids are athletes only either, so there are Calvin Johnsons out there if we can real them in. But to your main point, no we can't recruit the kids that most of our competition can.

BTW, ugag only requires 4 maths, not the same 4 math course Tech does. They can use General Math as one of their 4.
 
Re: Our \"tougher\" entrance requirements

I didn't say that UGA has similar requirements to ours. As has been said before, I believe the 4th math at UGA can be general math. The point I was trying to make is that 9 out of 10 schools only required 3 maths. Immediately we are at a distinct disadvantage. Next, the GPA and SAT score of our recruits must be significantly higher than those of UGA or most other schools before they are even considered. But just as important is what these kids are expected to do academically once they get into GT. The types of classes they can take at other schools like UGA to stay academically eligible don't even exist at GT. Talk about a 1,2 punch. It is important that you look at the entire picture and get into the head of a 17 year old whose only dream is to play in the NFL. They would never step foot on a college campus if it were not for football and the required 3 years after high school before they can play in the NFL. You and I know that those ideas are not realistic either, but imagine being told at the age of 17 that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread by great college coaches who put players in the NFL every year. These kids are often raised in a one parent household and that parent may or may not have even finished high school, much less attended one college class. I don't know how to make it any clearer. This is a subject that I am very sensitive to and I feel like some people have unreasonable expectations. I am also sensitive to it because I feel like the very recruits we are discussing are being treated like meat and their best interests are not being served.
 
Re: All students, including football players must have

[ QUOTE ]
How is that different than most required academia in Georgia high schools? Are you saying that the state-mandated high school graduation requirements are not good enough for Georgia Tech?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many HS in Ga. offer "non-academic" Diplomas called "Certificates of Attendance" in which a student can Graduate having had only basic math; once a SA is on this "Track", and then grows 4 inches and becomes a D-1A prospect, it is usually too late for them to gain the required academic skills to even ATTEMPT the higher level HS MATH; this is why so many of these SAs end up at UGAy or Aubun, or Tenn.

Many SAs are eliminated from considering GT by the time they enter the 9th or 10th grade!
 
Re: Well, the biggest difference for GT is you have to

[ QUOTE ]

Wisely, Chan does not allow Rivals/Insiders to attend our camp. We as GT fans must refuse to care about recruiting rankings. Putting pressure on Chan to fix what ain't broke (recruiting) for no legitimate reason whatsoever (recruiting rankings) is suicide IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're flat out wrong here!

Our recruiting IS BROKEN!

If it weren't then we would have top flight ATHLETES THAT ARE BACKUPS TO MAN OUR SPECIAL TEAMS!

Our STs look very small, slow, and non-physical!

A way to tell when a program recruits well is the speed,size, and athleticism of the BACKUPS that man the special teams!
 
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