Something is about to go down in California

GT98 said:
System needs to be burned to the ground and start over. The colleges built what is going on now. When schools are pumping millions upon millions into player lounges and slides (i.e. Clemson) whatever romantic notion of the amateur athlete that many seems to have has been long gone. These kids are already have a (mini) marketing dept w/social media now with the nonsense involved with recruiting. The overwhelming majority of these kids aren't there for any education nor do they care about a degree.
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Clemson also has a Chick Fil A, so I hear.
 
johncu said:
I'm not torn at all. Paying players will destroy whatever semblance of "college" football we have left. People whose sole goal is to play football and earn money have no business in college for 3+ years anyway
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Your a Clemson fan as well, right? We are already at the play football and earn money part now. You think the kids are lining up because Dabo is a swell guy? I'm not picking on Clemson as the majority of the big time college football is the same way.

Here's a recent college star laying it out for us:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/ucla-star-josh-rosen-exposes-an-ugly-truth-about-ncaa-football.html

Additional article about college athletes and education:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/7/9/5885433/ncaa-trial-student-athletes-education

This makes clear what should be already: The NCAA and its member schools care far more about the appearance of educating athletes than they do actually educating athletes. The goal is to win, and to make winning look good in the process, regardless of the reality.


johncu said:
What we need is a massive lawsuit against the NFL that allows players to enter the draft whenever they want. Then if the NFL is serious about safety being a reason for the age limit, they'll create a developmental league where kids can play and get paid.
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What lawsuit? The NFL is a privately run league. You can't force them to hire anyone. Even if the 3 years removed from HS requirement was removed, the NFL isn't going to be jumping on signing physically undeveloped 18 year olds when they can sign them when they are 21-23. The NFL won't be forced to start its own minor league type system until the schools make a real degree priority for it's athletes and not admitting kids that have little business on being on a college campus outside of their athletic prowess.
 
GT98 said:
System needs to be burned to the ground and start over. The colleges built what is going on now. When schools are pumping millions upon millions into player lounges and slides (i.e. Clemson) whatever romantic notion of the amateur athlete that many seems to have has been long gone. These kids are already have a (mini) marketing dept w/social media now with the nonsense involved with recruiting. The overwhelming majority of these kids aren't there for any education nor do they care about a degree.
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Well I don't agree with your last sentence. I loved playing sports, still do. At every age I enjoy competing and that is the #1 drive for these kids too. Yes, I wanted to make it to the Major Leagues, but I still got an education along the way. Only a small percentage of NCAA football players are going to the Big Show.

International soccer is pushing professionalism at a very young age. They can partly do it because the players tend to come from the underclass (one of the reasons why US players will always be behind). Yes, IMG and other schools are pushing amateurism to its limits. Personally I would cap it, but for those wanted more early, go for it. Just do it outside of the NCAA.

I'd limit how many coaches and advisors Saban can have. He basically has a qualified backup coach at every position. It seems a bit unfair when competing with UAB. I'd equalize the game and maybe even spread the wealth as MLB modestly does. I still believe the NCAA offers an excellent package for their athletes. If kids need to make more money, help themselves outside of the NCAA.
 
GT98 said:
Your a Clemson fan as well, right? We are already at the play football and earn money part now. You think the kids are lining up because Dabo is a swell guy? I'm not picking on Clemson as the majority of the big time college football is the same way.

Here's a recent college star laying it out for us:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/ucla-star-josh-rosen-exposes-an-ugly-truth-about-ncaa-football.html

Additional article about college athletes and education:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/7/9/5885433/ncaa-trial-student-athletes-education

This makes clear what should be already: The NCAA and its member schools care far more about the appearance of educating athletes than they do actually educating athletes. The goal is to win, and to make winning look good in the process, regardless of the reality.
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Yeah, I actually do think kids are lining up to play at Clemson because they like Dabo and the culture. I'd be stunned if there wasn't some money changing hands, but I've always assumed that happens at any major school, including GT to at least some degree. In fact, I know for a fact that small, but regular payments happened under Tommy Bowden (the ones I knew about stopped under Dabo), but he sure didn't recruit anywhere near to the level Dabo does.

But regardless, I agree that the system is already ööööed up. I just think this would be the death blow.


What lawsuit? The NFL is a privately run league. You can't force them to hire anyone. Even if the 3 years removed from HS requirement was removed, the NFL isn't going to be jumping on signing physically undeveloped 18 year olds when they can sign them when they are 21-23. The NFL won't be forced to start its own minor league type system until the schools make a real degree priority for it's athletes and not admitting kids that have little business on being on a college campus outside of their athletic prowess.
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Are you telling me that nobody would have drafted Trevor Lawrence after the title game performance? Or Tua 2 years ago? Or Leonard Fournette? Or Jadeveon Clowney? Those guys would have been first rounders after their freshman years, if not earlier. It would absolutely be worthwhile to use a late round pick on a 5* high school kid that could be a potential first rounder in the future. Hell, baseball teams frequently draft guys in high rounds and aren't able to use them until years later. Why does football have to be different?
 
GT98 said:
Your a Clemson fan as well, right? We are already at the play football and earn money part now. You think the kids are lining up because Dabo is a swell guy? I'm not picking on Clemson as the majority of the big time college football is the same way.

Here's a recent college star laying it out for us:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/ucla-star-josh-rosen-exposes-an-ugly-truth-about-ncaa-football.html

Additional article about college athletes and education:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/7/9/5885433/ncaa-trial-student-athletes-education

This makes clear what should be already: The NCAA and its member schools care far more about the appearance of educating athletes than they do actually educating athletes. The goal is to win, and to make winning look good in the process, regardless of the reality.




What lawsuit? The NFL is a privately run league. You can't force them to hire anyone. Even if the 3 years removed from HS requirement was removed, the NFL isn't going to be jumping on signing physically undeveloped 18 year olds when they can sign them when they are 21-23. The NFL won't be forced to start its own minor league type system until the schools make a real degree priority for it's athletes and not admitting kids that have little business on being on a college campus outside of their athletic prowess.
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Look, I worked an average of 26 hours a week. I had to drive to get to work, so it was at least 30 hours a week of my time. I also always took a full load at Tech. I also never missed an intramural game (about four a week). I never missed a party. I never missed a Tech football or basketball game. Kids have the energy to pull off being a full time athlete and a full time student. They also don't have to go find food, or teachers, etc. It's hard and it's a big commitment but it's doable. The secret of course is to be at a school where you belong.

The second part of your post is about what players leave school with (Rolle,e.g.). His comments may be accurate that players leave beaten and with no direction. However, there is no investigation into what a below average student who goes to FSU compares to a below average student that goes out to work out of high school. There is all kinds of education provided in college too. Until someone seriously compares what happens to both examples, any reporting is total BS. (and typical reporting of today's journalists).
 
johncu said:
I'm not torn at all. Paying players will destroy whatever semblance of "college" football we have left. People whose sole goal is to play football and earn money have no business in college for 3+ years anyway. What we need is a massive lawsuit against the NFL that allows players to enter the draft whenever they want. Then if the NFL is serious about safety being a reason for the age limit, they'll create a developmental league where kids can play and get paid.
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Already been done.... Google "Maurice Clarett" and see how far he got. If you aren't a party to the CBA, i.e., either as a member of the NFLPA or the NFL, you don't have "standing," IOW, you don't have a dog in the hunt. MGT 325 Business Law 48 years ago drummed that already well-established NLRB principle into our heads and though it's been oft-challenged, but never overturned. If it ain't in the NFLPA-NFL CBA, it ain't happening. I suspect the NFLPA has something else on their Bucket List before allowing HSers into their ranks like the NBAPA or MLBPA for that matter.
 
DeepSnap said:
Already been done.... Google "Maurice Clarett" and see how far he got. If you aren't a party to the CBA, i.e., either as a member of the NFLPA or the NFL, you don't have "standing," IOW, you don't have a dog in the hunt. MGT 325 Business Law 48 years ago drummed that already well-established NLRB principle into our heads and though it's been oft-challenged, but never overturned. If it ain't in the NFLPA-NFL CBA, it ain't happening. I suspect the NFLPA has something else on their Bucket List before allowing HSers into their ranks like the NBAPA or MLBPA for that matter.
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There was also an Ohio State player that tried to transfer to Maryland after his sophomore year. He discovered that NONE of his Ohio State credits would transfer to Maryland.
 
DeepSnap said:
Already been done.... Google "Maurice Clarett" and see how far he got. If you aren't a party to the CBA, i.e., either as a member of the NFLPA or the NFL, you don't have "standing," IOW, you don't have a dog in the hunt. MGT 325 Business Law 48 years ago drummed that already well-established NLRB principle into our heads and though it's been oft-challenged, but never overturned. If it ain't in the NFLPA-NFL CBA, it ain't happening. I suspect the NFLPA has something else on their Bucket List before allowing HSers into their ranks like the NBAPA or MLBPA for that matter.
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Maurice Clarett was one dude. It's gonna take a lot more than that to accomplish anything. College basketball has had enough discontent with the one and done rule (including players leaving to go overseas) that they seem on track to ditch the rule. Football needs something similar.
 
midatlantech said:
Well I don't agree with your last sentence. I loved playing sports, still do. At every age I enjoy competing and that is the #1 drive for these kids too. Yes, I wanted to make it to the Major Leagues, but I still got an education along the way. Only a small percentage of NCAA football players are going to the Big Show.

International soccer is pushing professionalism at a very young age. They can partly do it because the players tend to come from the underclass (one of the reasons why US players will always be behind). Yes, IMG and other schools are pushing amateurism to its limits. Personally I would cap it, but for those wanted more early, go for it. Just do it outside of the NCAA.

I'd limit how many coaches and advisors Saban can have. He basically has a qualified backup coach at every position. It seems a bit unfair when competing with UAB. I'd equalize the game and maybe even spread the wealth as MLB modestly does. I still believe the NCAA offers an excellent package for their athletes. If kids need to make more money, help themselves outside of the NCAA.
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I think that my last sentence is spot on at least as it pertains to major college football and men's basketball. I'll have to dig up the article, but even when confronted w/the facts less than 2% of Div. I football players make it to the NFL, the % of players that thought in college that they were in the 2% group was staggering.

Can't compare int'l soccer. Apples and Oraguntans would be a better comparison. For the euro kids showing great promise, they are signed into a club's academy at a young age and coached from there. And yes, the percentage of those kids ever signing a pro contract w/that club (or another one) into their teenage years is incredibly small. A friend played for a small English club in their academy and he told me that on the first day, the coach lined them up and told them that they had a greater chance of being a heart surgeon than a professional footballer (soccer player)--he was 14 at the time. The other issue of US soccer vis-a-vi int'l competition is a gulf in the quality of coaching received from a young age, not too mention all of the best athletes going into one sport versus the many available here.

As for Saban able to have a coaching staff seemingly larger than his opponent has players, well, that's the market that they are exploiting. The NCAA can't get the stipend issue right, doubtful that they will be allowed to "reign in" the ridiculous excesses that colleges have escalated to in the name of getting an advantage.
 
Least we forget, Chris Washburn admitted that while he was at NC State, he couldn't even read
 
johncu said:
Maurice Clarett was one dude. It's gonna take a lot more than that to accomplish anything. College basketball has had enough discontent with the one and done rule (including players leaving to go overseas) that they seem on track to ditch the rule. Football needs something similar.
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You're missing the point: It has absolutely nothing to do with what the colleges or the NCAA want or don't want, what the athlete(s) want or don't want, or what John Q. Public wants.

The NBAPA-NBA CBA is changing "one and done," NOT-RPT-NOT - the NCAA. If the NBAPA-NBA wanted to institute a CBA like that of the MLBPA-MLB or the NFLPA-NFL, then it would be what's in the CBA.

Clarett's just a reasonably recent, high profile example with a judgement written by a now-sitting Supreme Court justice (Sotomayor).
 
I used to buy into the notion of a 4 year education and its market worth, but I'm not really buying it anymore. If I have the skills to be an engineer at Google, why do I have to take a 4 year unpaid internship first? I could just go to Amazon. But in this world I am blocked from going to Amazon until I serve my 4 year unpaid internship. Yeah, sure I would get some great on the job training, but I also lose 4 years of income for what I'd be worth on the open market.
 
johncu said:
But regardless, I agree that the system is already ööööed up. I just think this would be the death blow.
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I'm ok w/this. Let Alabama, Ugag, Clemson, Texas, etc. form their own semi-pro league of 20 or so teams and go from there. GT can join liked minded other schools where the kids are students as well. I'd still support GT and go to games even though I realize that I'm in the vast minority here of college football fans.

johncu said:
Are you telling me that nobody would have drafted Trevor Lawrence after the title game performance? Or Tua 2 years ago? Or Leonard Fournette? Or Jadeveon Clowney? Those guys would have been first rounders after their freshman years, if not earlier. It would absolutely be worthwhile to use a late round pick on a 5* high school kid that could be a potential first rounder in the future. Hell, baseball teams frequently draft guys in high rounds and aren't able to use them until years later. Why does football have to be different?
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Correct. Unless the draft was as long as MLB's (in terms of rounds since the NFL's is 7) and there was somewhere to stash the player/develop him/etc, no NFL team is taking an 18 yr old QB. Those guys would not have been 1st rounders after their freshman years, no matter what they looked like in college. The scouts and teams understand the huge talent disparity between schools and competition levels of college football. No reason for the NFL to have its own minor league system when college willingly does it for free. Also, given how quickly the alternative leagues to the NFL fail and how quickly the XFL 2.0 reboot will as well, no reason for the NFL to change.
 
Newsflash, kids are already getting paid. not all of them, just the good ones.
 
So I assume everyone opposed to this is outraged that coaches make millions per year to coach these "amateur" athletes? Has that tainted the sport for you?
 
TechN9ne said:
So I assume everyone opposed to this is outraged that coaches make millions per year to coach these "amateur" athletes? Has that tainted the sport for you?
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You must remember that these folks are still young kids chasing a dream OR just wanting to participate in a sport that they love.

My daughter played in 3000 games between 8-18. I never wanted it, it just happened. Her grades rose every year, her confidence rose every year. She turned down D1/D3 to go to Tech. (Would have played for Ehren but he left.) In all those years and games, she never once thought she was going to the top. She liked playing.

I have a young friend who I met at 20 years old. He wanted to be on the PGA tour. He hits a 7 iron 220 yards if need be. I helped him with his short game and course management, but before I did, I gave him the same speech. "The odds are very slim." The point is that it's okay to have a dream at these ages. It's okay to maybe waste a few years to enjoy what you like doing.

Meanwhile, I coached 2000 of my kids games. I put in a lot of effort and constantly strived to be a great coach. Some coaches decided to make money while they coached kids. I had no problem with it. I thought about it too. But these 40 year olds had to have a career at that point. That is not true at 18.

Lastly, college athletes on scholarship are not amateurs. They are getting paid $200,000 worth of things to play ball. Using the example of the many who will later go into coaching.....I had to learn how to coach on my own at my cost. These kids get to learn the top level of their sport and get paid to do it. A few get lucky and go higher. Almost all get one hell of an education (more than just 'book learning') and one hell of an experience.
 
People make the player compensation issue out to be way more complicated than it is:

If you choose to play NCAA football, you get a free college education and you get to play college football. You don't get paid.

If you don't like it, go play minor league football somewhere.

That's how it should work, it's fair.
 
RussianOffense said:
People make the player compensation issue out to be way more complicated than it is:

If you choose to play NCAA football, you get a free college education and you get to play college football. You don't get paid.

If you don't like it, go play minor league football somewhere.

That's how it should work, it's fair.
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Exactly. It isnt the NCAAs fault that there is no money to be made anywhere else playing football short of the NFL or CFL.

The NFL does not want or need 18 and 19 year olds. You could probably count all of the players that were physically ready for the NFL out of high school in the last 30 years on 2 hands, maybe 1. They have no incentive to draft high schoolers when 21 year old professionally trained players pour out of college every year.

The current college system is the best option for an 18 year old football player, by far. A small, small percentage could be drafted after 1 or 2 years, if allowed, but that's not a major issue. They are free to sit out and bang on the NFLs door all they want until they turn 21.

The only way to keep the integrity of CFB as an amatuer sport with an artificially leveled playing field on which 100+ teams can reasonably compete is to not allow teams to pay or buy specific players.

I'd rather lose the 5 guys per team that would actually make any money on their own merit than destroy the college football game that we know and love.
 
ScionOfSouthland said:
I’m fine with seeing Trevor Lawrence on my next State Farm commercial. I’m also fine knowing that ending amateurism in football would completely upend the sport. Professional football is the only job I know of (a dangerous one at that) where you can have all of the prerequisite skills at 18 but have to arbitrarily do the job for 3-4 years before you can start making money. It isn’t in the best interest of the athlete and people want to maintain the status quo either for entertainment or because it is a cash cow IMO.
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How many 18 year olds are ready to play in the NFL? Like, one guy every five years? Let's not up-end 150 years of amateur sports because of that one guy.
 
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