F$U President to UF: We'll commit fraud to get Tebow suspended

[BuzzCzar]

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[BuzzCzar]

Who said undeclared major? Universities make you take tons of classes unrelated to your interests. I was a CS major my entire time at Tech, and yet I ended up having to take chemistry, biology, psychology, and history of art, among other classes. There were many students in these classes in the same situation as me, which is probably the same situation as most of the kids in that music class. That leads to cheating, because honestly, most of the people in those classes didn't care about the spellings of the names of ancient artists. I don't think that reflects on me not knowing what I want to do with my life or going to college just as the next step after high school.

The reality of the system right now is that you go to school to get the grades and the degree, not really because you are interested in the classes. Hopefully you are very interested in the field related to your degree, but that is very often different from the classes you have to take.

again, this is because the "core" classes are not taught in high school as they should so you use the first two years to take all kinds of stuff you may not be interested in. i advocate not having all the "weed out" classes at all, you can already avoid them as a serious student by taking AP classes and exempting

as far as choosing elective that you have no interest in to get an easy grade, thats your own fault, dont blame the school if you then cheat because YOU dont care. they dont force you to take history of art, you chose it over Astrophysics and Stellar Evolution, over Film Making, and Basketball. suffer the consequences. you can take all real classes if you chose to, it just might take you longer to graduate

i think the anecdotal requirement is other areas of learning for all students to make them "well rounded" is a bunch of useless crap, because it creates situations as you cite. that is not the historical university mission, well, it is but it is expected that you already know that and do physical activity and read about things and are generally a "man of the world"

i acknowledge that the current system is for idiots getting degrees without necessarily learning anything, thats why i think its a problem

look how far we are falling behind similar societies in education

 

[TechSBP]

To be fair, probably 75%+ of the kids in that class were cheating. That sort of thing happens all the time in college, especially when there is some sort of online assessment.

Not that it makes it any less of an NCAA offense for the football team to be doing it.

Look--that just makes it worse. That means there was probably systematic cheating in other classes.

Tech works hard to detect cheating. And I was at Tech the last time there was a big problem. It wasn't pretty, but Tech dealt with it and didn't excuse it (see CS cheating scandal back in 02?). And we did it the right way--the focus was on helping people understand why cheating is wrong through their punishments, because many of those involved had no idea that cheating was wrong (I'm not kidding).

Good schools and good people do not tolerate academic cheaters.

So let's add F$U and cheating to the things that folks are going to defend against criticism. They'll fit right in with the AUC.

 

[Allen Koholic]

Look--that just makes it worse. That means there was probably systematic cheating in other classes.

Tech works hard to detect cheating. And I was at Tech the last time there was a big problem. It wasn't pretty, but Tech dealt with it and didn't excuse it (see CS cheating scandal back in 02?). And we did it the right way--the focus was on helping people understand why cheating is wrong through their punishments, because many of those involved had no idea that cheating was wrong (I'm not kidding).

I was in that class. The problem there was that too many kids were in way over their heads and figured that borrowing code from one another was perfectly acceptable. It didn't help that the language they were teaching at the time was a God awful mess. I had no problems with how they handled it, mostly because I wasn't cheating. I pulled plenty of all nighters for that awful course and I figured that everyone should have had to pull their own weight. I was glad the Hill thought the same thing.

 

[TampaJacket]

Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

 

[gth816f]

So let's add F$U and cheating to the things that folks are going to defend against criticism. They'll fit right in with the AUC.

I said right in my post that just because others were doing it doesn't make it any less of a violation. But some people are making it out like FSU's players were doing some reprehensible thing, when really they were just doing what many other normal students do. You can say that Tech works hard to detect cheaters, but if you don't think there is a significant amount of cheating going on by normal students and by athletes, then you are simply naive.

 

[BuzzCzar]

Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

are you brain dead? look at the context where they were made and you comments seem crudely out of place... plus its the PRESIDENT of FSU, not the AD, not some coach or booster, the Head of University; i think you are brain dead

 

[Allen Koholic]

Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

I assume Wetherell was trying to make a case that the coaching staff completely blameless here. Which they aren't. They recruit thugs, put them into garbage courses and use kids as nothing more then money printing machines for their football team. It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident, but FSU has had problems with discipline for years.

On top of that, he and St. Bobby are crying about the "harsh" penalties they got, when they should have had the hammer dropped on them. They're acting like babies and whining like the NCAA is being unduly mean in handing out punishment, when in reality, they got a slap on the wrist.

 

[TechSBP]

Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

Of course I know they were tongue and cheek. But that indicates two things:

1) He thought his tongue and cheek proposal, if carried out, was no more wrong than what F$U did.

2) He doesn't take cheating seriously.

 

[TechSBP]

IBut some people are making it out like FSU's players were doing some reprehensible thing, when really they were just doing what many other normal students do.

They were doing something reprehensible. It is called cheating. That's what I said earlier, and this is your response?

Cheating is indefensible. It is reprehensible. It is disgusting. Especially when it is repeated after the initial, inevitable, mistakes--which people should learn from.

Your posts defend cheating because everyone does it. I don't care how many people do it. It is never acceptable. It is always reprehensible.

We disagree on whether cheating is okay or wrong. It's the internet, what do you expect--people to stop arguing about minutiae?

But I'll put it this way: the more success I've had in life, the fewer academic cheaters I've met at each successive level (massive jerks, sociopaths, idiot savants, etc., are a different story, but I'm lawyer--what can you do).

What enrages me about this story, more than anything, is that F$U's president seems to embrace cheating and fails to recognize it is a problem, instead of simply criticizing the numerous, I'm sure, errors in the NCAA actions.

 

[TampaJacket]

are you brain dead? look at the context where they were made and you comments seem crudely out of place... plus its the PRESIDENT of FSU, not the AD, not some coach or booster, the Head of University; i think you are brain dead

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here, and the writer of the story even alluded to it here:

"Wetherell wasn’t finished, though. Moments after referring to small, Baptist college as a “[dipstick] school,” he used an elaborate hypothetical story involving Florida quarterback Tim Tebow. The story was meant to illustrate Wetherell’s disdain for the way the NCAA handled some aspects of its ruling regarding FSU’s academic fraud case."

If that makes me brain dead, then I am guilty as charged, and so is the author.

Take care...Mike

 

[TechSBP]

Y
However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here.

When you are a University president, this is not a mistake you can make. He should've known better. Who knows, maybe he was drunk?

 

[TampaJacket]

I assume Wetherell was trying to make a case that the coaching staff completely blameless here. Which they aren't.

With all due respect, Mr. Koholic, you are ASSUMING things about a discussion that you weren't present for.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how you make the jump that the coaching staff is somehow responsible for players cheating -- did they help them cheat and/or were they aware of it before this story broke? From what I understand the answer to both those questions is "no", so I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion you did.

Does FSU have a less-than-stellar record when it comes to off-the-field incidents? Of course.

Has the way that FSU has dealt with these issues in the past affected how players will act? Probably.

Am I ready to draw the conclusion that the coaches were somehow responsible for this cheating incident? Given what I've read, not a chance.

Then again, I'm a fairly logical guy...and I try not to presume things when it comes to assigning blame/guilt.

Respectfully...Mike

 

[gth816f]

We disagree on whether cheating is okay or wrong. It's the internet, what do you expect--people to stop arguing about minutiae?

Actually, I think I muddled my message a bit. I was originally talking to the person who said that they might not be college material if they needed to cheat in an online music course. My point was that many people(geniuses, intelligent people, and dumb people alike) cheat in college, especially in courses not related to their major, which I would assume was the case with the music class. This probably wasn't a case of FSU recruiting players too dumb to pass a music class without cheating. It was more of a case of FSU not being able to get their players to understand that they have to be more careful with EVERYTHING they do because they are football players and they have a microscope on them that normal students don't.

You're right, all that doesn't mean it's not reprehensible. That's a different discussion and one that everyone would probably have varying degrees of opinions on.

 

[BuzzMD]

Not only the Tebow line, but calling a small college a "dipstick" (and he did not say dipstick) school is unacceptable. I am sorry if the Tebow was tongue in cheek, but so far Samford needs a public apology.

 

[BuzzCzar]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here, and the writer of the story even alluded to it here:

"Wetherell wasn’t finished, though. Moments after referring to small, Baptist college as a “[dipstick] school,” he used an elaborate hypothetical story involving Florida quarterback Tim Tebow. The story was meant to illustrate Wetherell’s disdain for the way the NCAA handled some aspects of its ruling regarding FSU’s academic fraud case."

If that makes me brain dead, then I am guilty as charged, and so is the author.

Take care...Mike

hey, didnt really mean to be insulting, but i am not really saying that it wasnt tongue in cheeck, just not the right thing to be tic about.

also, if the publicist had to sit him down to tell him to shut up then there is obviously a problem

sorry to come on so stronly before...

 

[TampaJacket]

No worries, brother. We can all get heated from time to time, and our tone often doesn't come through in writing.

Clearly the FSU pres put his foot in his mouth. I just don't think it was quite as big of a deal as some are making it, and I suspect that our long-lived hatred for all that FSU stands for has gotten the better of our objectivity.

But that's just me and YMMV.

Respectfully...Mike

 

[TampaJacket]

Not only the Tebow line, but calling a small college a "dipstick" (and he did not say dipstick) school is unacceptable. ... but so far Samford needs a public apology.

I agree. His comments were uncalled for.

That said, have you ever been to the Samford campus? It is rather dipstick-like. ;)

 

[TampaJacket]

When you are a University president, this is not a mistake you can make. He should've known better. Who knows, maybe he was drunk?

Maybe. However, if I had to guess, the pres is between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, the FSU football program generates a huge amount of revenue and publicity for the university. On the other hand a cheating scandal hits to the core of what FSU is really -- a center for higher education. He's likely feeling immense pressure, and cracked a bit in the press conference.

While I will not really defend his position, I can certainly understand why something like that might happen.

Respectfully...Mike