i see things havent changed that much

[gtzulu]

They do have freedom of speech. The school has freedom to decide that this type of speech is not accepted at their school. Everyone's free speech rights are protected.

I always say that you have the right to say what you want, and people have the right to interpret what you say and judge you based on it. So be careful what you say.

So if you attend a school you have no private or separate space whatsoever where you can exercise freedom of speech? If someone surreptitiously, without your permission, records you anywhere saying or doing something deemed inappropriate to the school, you should be punished by the school? That's ridiculous.

Imagine you have a job, everything you ever did or said in private, away from your job, was made public, and your employer would fire you if they didn't like any of it! Almost all of us would be fired.

I think a pertinent question in this case is did the people making the chant know whether the recording would be made public. Otherwise they may have had a reasonable expectation of privacy, being in a private vehicle (presumably). I disagree with these expulsions unless they made or shared their racist comments in or on university property and they had no reasonable expectation of privacy.

 

[gtzulu]

I really resent our culture where organizations (companies, schools, etc.) commonly seek a measure of control over the entire lives of their members. It's a kind of enslavement. Butt out of our lives! Sometimes we are ourselves and not employee #1234.

 

[18in32]

I love these kinds of threads. Everyone gets to be self-righteous. Woo-hoo!


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[Xihix]

too lazy to read this thread but are any of you really defending some jack asses singing about lynching black people as their freedom of speech? if you're not directly doing that and want to protect the idea of free speech, why the öööö pick your battle here of all places goodness gracious have some tact

if i am entirely off my bad. frats are still excuses to rape people and/or be racist.

 

[coit]

All I'm saying is that if you're in a frat there is a 95% chance that you will or already have raped someone. I don't see how that's controversial.

You are trying too hard. Or you are retarded. I'm going with the latter.

 

[WracerX]

too lazy to read this thread but are any of you really defending some jack asses singing about lynching black people as their freedom of speech? if you're not directly doing that and want to protect the idea of free speech, why the öööö pick your battle here of all places goodness gracious have some tact

if i am entirely off my bad. frats are still excuses to rape people and/or be racist.

Because there is no need to defend freedom of speech that is not offensive to the majority.

 

[WracerX]

They do have freedom of speech. The school has freedom to decide that this type of speech is not accepted at their school. Everyone's free speech rights are protected.

I always say that you have the right to say what you want, and people have the right to interpret what you say and judge you based on it. So be careful what you say.


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This would be true of a private school. Public schools don't have the same right to freedom of association because people don't have the right not to pay taxes which fund them.

 

[WracerX]

I do find the school's position a little ironic. It is basically "These guys made a racist song, let stop educating them."

 

[BuzzCzar]

No, not at all. Its "these students choose to behave in a way that makes it impossible to maintain a proper learning environment, so let's remove them so we can get back to educating those willing and capable of learning'

Because if you don't realize at college-age that singing about lynching black guys is probably gonna get you in some sort of trouble, then you are too dumb to graduate or you have no intent on living up to the mission of the school

 

[MEwreck02]

Careful, sarcastic one.

Why? I love how certain jimmies are rustled over the staying of words, regardless of how stupid they are, but they are actual documented cases of physical violence that are just swept under the rug. Where is all this outrage for these actual victims? Reading this thread, makes one believe the right to not be offended is the greatest right of all.

 

[Diseqc]

No, not at all. Its "these students choose to behave in a way that makes it impossible to maintain a proper learning environment, so let's remove them so we can get back to educating those willing and capable of learning'



Because if you don't realize at college-age that singing about lynching black guys is probably gonna get you in some sort of trouble, then you are too dumb to graduate or you have no intent on living up to the mission of the school

"But these other students play football so it's cool if they assault women and use homophobic slurs".

 

[LeonardWood]

The school has freedom to decide that this type of speech is not accepted at their school.

But this simply isn't true. Government-funded institutions cannot prevent or punish someone for political, opinionated, or otherwise controversial speech. The school does not have that freedom. Period.

 

[LeonardWood]

too lazy to read this thread but are any of you really defending some jack asses singing about lynching black people as their freedom of speech? if you're not directly doing that and want to protect the idea of free speech, why the öööö pick your battle here of all places goodness gracious have some tact

if i am entirely off my bad. frats are still excuses to rape people and/or be racist.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H. L. Mencken

 

[declinometer]

too lazy to read this thread but are any of you really defending some jack asses singing about lynching black people as their freedom of speech? if you're not directly doing that and want to protect the idea of free speech, why the öööö pick your battle here of all places goodness gracious have some tact

if i am entirely off my bad. frats are still excuses to rape people and/or be racist.

'What do we want, dead cops, when do we want them now'
Being these chants came in the wake of Ferguson, I don't think that these protestors were chanting about black cops.

 

[WracerX]

No, not at all. Its "these students choose to behave in a way that makes it impossible to maintain a proper learning environment, so let's remove them so we can get back to educating those willing and capable of learning'

Because if you don't realize at college-age that singing about lynching black guys is probably gonna get you in some sort of trouble, then you are too dumb to graduate or you have no intent on living up to the mission of the school

They were speaking at a private setting not out in front of the AA student union. Their words would have zero effect if not for so much HWFO.

And the lynching lyrics weren't much different than the battle axe line in Up with the White and Gold. It was clearly not a threat.

These guys were assholes. They should be treated as such by other students, but the administration shouldn't even consider expulsion. I can see booting the frat as that orginization exists on campus at the whim of the administration.

 

[BuzzCzar]

here is one thing i want to state clearly:

it is obvious that there are multiple issues and rights in play here. difficult legal questions, like ethical questions, always force you to choose between two imperfect solutions

if it were as easy as choosing the right thing over the wrong thing, we wouldnt be debating about it that hard. the fact is that the choices we have to make in such situations are imperfect and seem to contradict at least in part some of the ideas we hold dear. choosing the lesser wrong is often very difficult, and reasonable people can disagree on which side that is

that said, maybe if SAEs were lynched on campuses around the country, they would no longer choose to sing about lynching people for stupid reasons

 

[BuzzCzar]

They were speaking at a private setting not out in front of the AA student union. Their words would have zero effect if not for so much HWFO.

And the lynching lyrics weren't much different than the battle axe line in Up with the White and Gold. It was clearly not a threat.

These guys were assholes. They should be treated as such by other students, but the administration shouldn't even consider expulsion. I can see booting the frat as that orginization exists on campus at the whim of the administration.

they should have been more careful not to share it with the public at large then, i guess

and, as you say, the students will probably treat them, not just as assholes, but there would probably be a real risk to said students' well-being, which the University would likely be litigationally on the hook for. that is a safety concern also

and, likely, the students agreed to follow a certain conduct of behavior toward their fellow students which they clearly violated

im not saying its a slam-dunk, but to say "should not even consider" is as retarted as saying that you should be able to wear a I HATE N****RS shirt in class

 

[WracerX]

Wearing that shirt to class disrupts the learning environment. Wearing it to bed does not.

And the threat of personal violence is a red herring. These guys said less than you would hear at a Fruit of Islam rally. FOI members have every right to attend OU.

 

[BuzzCzar]

Wearing that shirt to class disrupts the learning environment. Wearing it to bed does not.

if you post pictures of you wearing it to bed on Facebook and the student body learns about it, then it does

in this case it was not restricted to private viewing, it became public

which is why i said previously that they should have been more 'private' if they wanted it to remain 'private'

once the students saw it, it DEFINITELY disrupted the campus learning process

in fact, a protest was organized. is that not a disruption?

 

[WracerX]

if you post pictures of you wearing it to bed on Facebook and the student body learns about it, then it does

We simply disagree on that.