Patenaude

I grew up watching Tech win games 10-3, and loved it. 14-10 is a throwback to days gone by. The win is preferable to losing 38-35, but I think you do not appreciate how bad South Florida is. And it gives me shivers that, at least Saturday, we were right down in ditch with them.
I do comprehend how bad they are. Do you comprehend that we literally had 8 scholarship athletes available to play on the OL on Saturday after 16 offensive plays and that ZERO of them were centers? A f'ing walk-on...let me repeat that...a WALK-ON was playing the only position on the field that touches the ball on every single play. The dude was the backup.....to the backup....of the starter. And he wasn't even listed on the "Above the line" chart at the beginning of the game. And we also lost the left tackle...the guy who protects all 3 of QB's blind sides since they're all right handed quarterbacks.

And somehow, despite all of that, you guys are bitching about QB's and reads and 'unimaginative offenses' etc? It seems that very few of us realize that we had little to no business winning that game on Saturday with the patchwork O line we used.

I, too, am hoping to see vastly improved offensive play throughout the year. But let me state it again. I care less than zero frigs how many yards we roll up on the ground or in the air, etc. If we continue to score at least 1 more point than the opposition has on the scoreboard, I'll be the happiest Tech fan around. I'm absolutely exhausted with trying to make the same old "we lost but it wasn't the offense's fault" or "it wasn't the defense's fault we lost" argument we made for the past xx years. Notice I didn't say 11 years because the same arguments went on under Gailey...where everyone talked about how Tenuta's defense kept us in the game but our offense couldn't get the job done. I care nothing about offensive or defensive stats.

I'll quote Bill Belichik on this one, "You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners."
 
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This is a failure of critical thinking. “Scoring more points than the other team” is a function of offense, defense, and special teams. This was pretty clearly illustrated by, well, the USF game last year, where defense and special teams both öööö the bed.

There’s some interdependence, obviously, but unfortunately for the point you’re arguing, our old offense actually helped the defense by burning clock and limiting possessions. (Except that when we score as prolifically as we did against USF last year, the offense also exposed some ST weaknesses by giving them more opportunities to fail.)

If you want to actually debate about relative quality or strength of offenses, you can’t just look at “did we win or lose,” you have to look at actual offensive stats. It’s impossible to argue (in any sort of valid way) that this year’s O was as productive as last year’s when you compare offensive stats against USF year-to-year, any more than you can argue that last year’s D was more effective against USF than this year’s.

If you want to compare overall team performance, then yeah, winning trumps everything. But if you’re talking offense, there’s no case for this year’s performance against USF.

JRjr
A few points:
a - multiple players on defense have said that our old offense actually hurt the defense because they didn't get to practice against the spread and a fully developed passing tree during the entirety of spring and early fall ball...not until scout teams were running the system of each individual team that week did we sometimes face a passing offense in practice. So while I will agree that it helped our defensive STATs in the game, I can't agree that it helped our offense as you said.
b - refer to Bill Belichik's quote from the other thread I posted “You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners.”. If the team does its job and the offense and special teams scores enough points to win while the defense and special teams does their jobs to limit the other team to fewer points than we have...I'm all for it. I could care less if we get 1 yard of total offense if that means that we score 1 more point than the other team has.
 
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Yours is addled by I-Heart-PJ Syndrome. If the QB "Option" Keeper play was on (Bowling Green, L'ville, VPI), we "looked good". The rest of the season (notable exceptions we agree upon), it wasn't and we looked horrible. Those 3 games with their 170 points and 2000 yards of offense made 2018 look much better than it was.
Miami stats were boosted by 2 TOs by our defense that gave us short fields to easy points. It was a great team victory, much like UVA. Both of these games, I pretty clearly stated that the O was either "OK" or "Good" so not sure why you brought them up. We were very effective vs a bad UNC team too. The rest was mostly stifled QB Keepers and hideous attempts at passing and catching the football.

Keep going, eventually you'll adjust for all opponents' opponents, garbage time, and fcs schools

Or you can just look at FEI rankings
 
QB say heeeeeyyyyyyy!
Ever hear of a thing called the wildcat formation or just a direct snap to a running back...or to the punter or the holder for the kicker? Just like in baseball...only one person touches the ball on every play and that's the pitcher. The catcher does on the vast majority, as does the QB, but not on every single one.
 
A few points:
a - multiple players on defense have said that our old offense actually hurt the defense because they didn't get to practice against the spread and a fully developed passing tree during the entirety of spring and early fall ball...not until scout teams were running the system of each individual team that week did we sometimes face a passing offense in practice. So while I will agree that it helped our defensive STATs in the game, I can't agree that it helped our offense as you said.
b - refer to Bill Belichik's quote from the other thread I posted “You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners.”. If the team does its job and the offense and special teams scores enough points to win while the defense and special teams does their jobs to limit the other team to fewer points than we have...I'm all for it. I could care less if we get 1 yard of total offense if that means that we score 1 more point than the other team has.

That’s great, but has very little to do with evaluating the performance of the OC or the offense, which is what this thread is ostensibly about.

JRjr
 
Ever hear of a thing called the wildcat formation or just a direct snap to a running back...or to the punter or the holder for the kicker? Just like in baseball...only one person touches the ball on every play and that's the pitcher. The catcher does on the vast majority, as does the QB, but not on every single one.

Yeah I think we tried to run one of those. Against Clemson at the goal line right?

I was gonna joke and say that the QB would touch it every play of the center could get it to him but figured that would be in bad taste. And I think our QBs did actually touch the ball on every snap this week.
 
That’s great, but has very little to do with evaluating the performance of the OC or the offense, which is what this thread is ostensibly about.

JRjr
The offensive line has little to do with evaluating the performance of the offense or the OC? Seriously? You cannot honestly believe that.
I mean, LOL...come on...seriously?
 
Yeah I think we tried to run one of those. Against Clemson at the goal line right?

I was gonna joke and say that the QB would touch it every play of the center could get it to him but figured that would be in bad taste. And I think our QBs did actually touch the ball on every snap this week.
Yes. Direct snap to Mason. Didn't work.
 
The offensive line has little to do with evaluating the performance of the offense or the OC? Seriously? You cannot honestly believe that.
I mean, LOL...come on...seriously?

Uh, what? You didn’t talk about the offensive line anywhere in the post I quoted and responded to.

You talked about the D not practicing against a traditional offense (definitely a knock against our previous offensive scheme, but nothing to do with offensive production), and then talked about stuff that, again, isn’t relevant to a discussion comparing offensive effectiveness.

JRjr
 
The offensive line has little to do with evaluating the performance of the offense or the OC? Seriously? You cannot honestly believe that.
I mean, LOL...come on...seriously?
Yeah, that's crazy, but what did Patenaude do at Temple that justified his promotion to P-5 level ?
 
Keep going, eventually you'll adjust for all opponents' opponents, garbage time, and fcs schools

Or you can just look at FEI rankings

Look, if you think last year's offense was an "outstanding" body of work for the entire season, we're simply never going to agree. It was fantastic for a few games but I can't possibly look at the O that played against Duke, Pitt, Minn, Clemson, and mutts and label it "outstanding" and that's almost half of the season.
Best to just agree to disagree here.
 
We knew the transition from the Flexbone would be tough. The losses on the o-line make it tougher, especially when we are down to the #3 guy at center in a shotgun offense. TO is the only QB to have led a sustained drive, but he is run-only. Neither of the other two QBs has separated himself from the others , but that’s hard to do when you’re running for your life.

It’d take an absolute genius OC to turn this around this year. I gotta give Patenaude a pass on this season, as long as his players put forth the effort.
 
Are we going to have a good defense and get a new OC every 2 or 3 years, each one sucking just like the one before?

Only if the OC's we get are named HC somewhere every 2 or 3 years. We may replace a random coach every once in a while for other reasons, but there is no structural reason this defense will retard the development of this offense.

So the question: Does CGC do anything that would arbitrarily put the O at a disadvantage? Like what? The main ones would be recruiting and cherry-picking who plays D and who plays O. Yes, there is a natural normal tendency for most coaches to put the best players on D, but is there anything unusual with CGC?

Let's look at transfers. I see 6 transfers. 3 were for offense. The highest ranked three were on D, but that is explainable. The highest ranked had a past relationship with CGC when he was a DC, so following him is natural and normal. The second and third ranked are DB's, and CGC has a reputation for developing DB's into functional pros, and so initial transfers are likely to be over-weighted with that group. So transfers do not show a clear bias against offense.

Let's look at CGC's 2019 recruits. He slowplayed/rejected/lost two recruits. Both were offensive linemen who were not going to contribute... ever... and to my knowledge did not find a P5 home later. I count 9 freshmen he was able to gain commits from. 4 were O and 5 were D. The top player was on O. So far, everything within statistical norms.

Let's look at CGC's 2020 recruits so far. Of the first 21 current bee's, 12 are on offense and 9 are on defense. 4 of the top 5 are on offense. Does this show a bias towards offensive recruiting? Probably not, since we direly need offensive linemen and tight ends. Hopefuls for any remaining ships come from both sides of the ball.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? What about assistant coaches? Is that side of the ball getting the shaft? Can anyone say with a straight face that the offensive staff which includes Brent Key and Tashard Choice is getting neglected? I don't see how.

What else could a HFC do to retard offensive development? He has defensive familiarity, just like the last coach had offensive familiarity, but all coaches are more familiar with one side of the ball over the other, and it seems that it does not have a strong statistical effect on team unit performance either way. I can anecdotally mention quite a few cases where defensive coaches took over and installed high-power offenses.

What else could a HFC do to upset offensive development? Does he have developing offensive players waste practice snaps facing a specialized defense, slowing their development? No. His defense, while more aggressive than most, is within the CFB mainstream. And I would think facing a sophisticated and aggressive defense in practice would help offensive development, not slow it down. CGC also emphasizes development, and runs double scrimmages to maximize useful snaps.

Does CGC unnecessarily hamstring his OC's? Force them to run unsound offenses? There is no evidence of that. The fact that DP and BK both knew CGC and followed him here is evidence that he does not over-manage the offense. Is he detrimentally detached from the offense? Based on his words and actions, I see zero evidence of that. He spends more time working with defense, but he makes effort to connect with the offensive players. Does CGC have a record of switching offenses faster than players can learn them? Not so far.

So how does all the above compare with the last decade, the situation that you fear will repeat but with roles reversed? You should analyze the last situation yourself, and with an open mind. What I see is a majority of commits in years past on the defensive side of the ball, but of those with unassigned "athlete" designations, they strongly tended to wind up on offense. I believe that is natural and normal in filling out a run option roster, and the sheer numbers of defensive recruits show a strong desire to fix the defense, although it also shows some mis-evaluation (or desperation.) The last coach had a hands-off policy on defense, and we tried a number of different defenses. I would not say this was indifference, but no one knows what happens inside meeting rooms, but I would be very surprised if the last coach was indifferent about our defense. Very very surprised. I think our defenses suffered from changing schemes too much. I have long said that it is very hard to build a strong defensive core, when your young players in peak development period are on scout team playing against your specialized offense. With the IIWII results, it is very hard to honestly argue against this.

Some think we had less ability in our defensive assistant coaches. I did not see that early in CPJ's tenure. Perhaps it turned out that way later. I don't know. I personally was not impressed with many of the replacement assistants on either side of the ball, when we lost one due to promotion elsewhere or being fired. And Sewak is a favorite whipping boy around here and he was an offensive coach. So I did not see any effort to make the defensive meeting room a second class destination. Did CPJ regularly attempt to connect with his defensive players? I will leave that question open for former players, who can answer more definitively.

But on the whole, I cannot imagine a decade-long defensive fugue to be coincidental, but the issues cannot be projected onto the new staff. I think the best fixes for our current offensive woes are a) persistent repetition of the new principles of offense, b) get healthy, and in the long term c) improve our recruiting. I don't see any of that being neglected right now.
 
The bottom-line for offense will be QB recruiting. It will make or break the offense and likely the program. One concern I have is what is the draw for a top QB to Tech? I don't think it is the scheme or OC and the HC is a defense guy. Collins figuring this out or making it happen will be a really big goal over the next few recruiting cycles.

I don't have concerns at OL because I think Key will be a draw and will figure it out/make it happen. I'm not worried about WR or RB because I think those will recruit themselves given the talent in Georgia and the south.

Now, IMO there are about 20 other important goals in the short term and you can't focus/improve everything in a program at once. Collins should build from what he knows, hope for the best at QB and then adjust if QB recruiting is not taking off as needed.
 
The bottom-line for offense will be QB recruiting. It will make or break the offense and likely the program.

Do these names ring a bell for you?

Jake Coker
AJ McCarron
Greg McElroy

Do you know what two things they have in common? All have won nattys at Bama. And all are very average QBs.

If you have a defense and a good offensive line you can get by with less than the best at QB. The QB position is not make or break for us. The OL and DL are.
 
I do comprehend how bad they are. Do you comprehend that we literally had 8 scholarship athletes available to play on the OL on Saturday after 16 offensive plays and that ZERO of them were centers? A f'ing walk-on...let me repeat that...a WALK-ON was playing the only position on the field that touches the ball on every single play. The dude was the backup.....to the backup....of the starter. And he wasn't even listed on the "Above the line" chart at the beginning of the game. And we also lost the left tackle...the guy who protects all 3 of QB's blind sides since they're all right handed quarterbacks.

And somehow, despite all of that, you guys are bitching about QB's and reads and 'unimaginative offenses' etc? It seems that very few of us realize that we had little to no business winning that game on Saturday with the patchwork O line we used.

I, too, am hoping to see vastly improved offensive play throughout the year. But let me state it again. I care less than zero frigs how many yards we roll up on the ground or in the air, etc. If we continue to score at least 1 more point than the opposition has on the scoreboard, I'll be the happiest Tech fan around. I'm absolutely exhausted with trying to make the same old "we lost but it wasn't the offense's fault" or "it wasn't the defense's fault we lost" argument we made for the past xx years. Notice I didn't say 11 years because the same arguments went on under Gailey...where everyone talked about how Tenuta's defense kept us in the game but our offense couldn't get the job done. I care nothing about offensive or defensive stats.

I'll quote Bill Belichik on this one, "You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners."
I am not bitching about quarterbacks. I'm not one of those saying burn Yates' redshirt. It's the line, the line, the line. I get it. I still maintain Collins has written this year off and is hitching his wagon to the next two recruiting classes.
 
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