Stream of Penn State v Army 2015?

beej67

beej67

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I'm running out of off season crap to watch, and this was the last time Tennessee's DC faced the option.
 
Watching now, conditions are a shitshow. Penn State opened 3 and out, punted, and Army fumbled their first snap.

This is a Monken team, so it should be pretty comparable.
 
Penn State sometimes defending with an odd front, base 5-2 look but probably with 4-3 personnel. Other times in a base 4-3 look, when they expect pass, dropping into zone. Sometimes a 4-3 with a very deep MLB, sorta the UGA/Miami defense but deeper on the MLB.

Sometimes they're lining up in the 4-3 with the deep MLB and then rotating the field backer up into the line to make the 5-2. This seems very dumb to me because your spacing is all dorked up. They aren't doing it like VT does, where the end starts wide and the backer jumps into the gap in the line. Also, when VT does the presnap defensive motion, they are in a base 4-3 without a deep MLB. If Tennessee does this to us, watch for big gains up the middle as we shoot for the 2nd level block. Post motion, their formation is literally a 5 man line, one LB tight to the play, and the MLB like 7 yards back. Dear god please line up this way against us.

Army personnel groups were either base personnel or heavy with a TE, usually base. Formation was either base, tight, or a tightened version of base with one WR in and one out. No trips or twins.

Army playbook for the first half is triple, midline, counter, belly, qb follow, sometimes twirl motion, rocket. Called maybe 2 pass plays both of which ended in sacks, so no actual attempts.

As mentioned before, first drive was a fumbled snap on the first play.

Second drive was killed by a dead ball clipping foul (lol). 15 and the down.

Third drive killed by bad interior blocking on a triple.

Fourth drive fumbled a pitch (unforced) on a triple that was going to go for yards.

Fifth drive fumbled another pitch on the triple due to conditions.

Sixth drive is one play to run out the clock before half after a PSU field goal.

First half ends 10-0 Penn State. PSU's offense was pretty much trash. Army able to rip off a couple of okay runs (20ish yards) but kept shooting themselves in the foot.
 
Shoop did a good job of coaching up his players to jump on loose balls. Other than that, it's hard to tell what his defensive game plan was, because Army made too many unforced mistakes to sustain a drive. I hope UT is counting on Tech to do the same.
 
2nd half...

Army's first play of the 2nd half is a trick play to pitch against motion and they fumble the crap out of it, lost a gazillion yards, couldn't get out of the hole.

Second drive is not bad. Triple for ten, triple (dive) for five, they run that "trick play" which turns out to be an a back counter pitch and it works. QB B Back speed option for 7 , pass for 30 off play action from the tight formation, QB follow for good yards, QB follow for a TD.

PSU made no defensive adjustments the whole drive, and stayed in that weird formation with the deep MLB (I'm not shitting you, the MLB is literally between the safeties) and the playside LB up on the line.

Waiting to see if Shoop goes back to the drawing board after that drive.
 
3rd drive, PSU in the same goofy formation. First play a dive for 15 or something, then a chop block call. 15 on the dive, loss on the keep, no gain, punt. So chop block kills the drive.

4th drive, PSU still has not adjusted their formation. Army runs half a dozen plays, most for positive yardage, then busts a midline for 56 and a TD. It was one of those "send the a back through the gap as an extra blockers" midlines. Monken at this point has shifted to interior stuff and 2 man option BB options and such. PSU got lucky Army didn't score on an earlier triple where the pitch guy had wide open green and tripped on some goofy turf. 14-20, PSU leading.

5th drive, down by 6 with 6:30 left, starting behind the 20 so time is a tiny factor. PSU in the same formation. With about 2 and a half minutes left and the ball over midfield, they fumble a mesh on first down, second down get five, third down get stuffed. On 4th, they line up in twins for the first time of the game, try to pass, and get sacked. Ballgame.

In my mind Army should have won this game.

Verdict: The base stuff basically worked when Army wasn't fumbling (7 fumbles, lost 3) or getting called for 15 yard penalties. Monken outcoached Shoop on Xs/Os. Penn State had better players. Not one defensive adjustment all game. PSU players were taking bad angles well into the 4th quarter. This game is great for us if Shoop thinks he did a good job, because he'll never see us coming.
 
I expect Tennessee to come out and prove that our starter can pass the ball. I also expect CPJ to have a play expecting Tennessee to expect us to pass the ball and I expect us to pass it a few times early. We could connect for a TD early on a pass. OTOH, they will not have the ability to stop the dive or midline so they are essentially dead meat.

Read. Delete post in one hour.
 
beej67 said:
3rd drive, PSU in the same goofy formation. First play a dive for 15 or something, then a chop block call. 15 on the dive, loss on the keep, no gain, punt. So chop block kills the drive.

4th drive, PSU still has not adjusted their formation. Army runs half a dozen plays, most for positive yardage, then busts a midline for 56 and a TD. It was one of those "send the a back through the gap as an extra blockers" midlines. Monken at this point has shifted to interior stuff and 2 man option BB options and such. PSU got lucky Army didn't score on an earlier triple where the pitch guy had wide open green and tripped on some goofy turf. 14-20, PSU leading.

5th drive, down by 6 with 6:30 left, starting behind the 20 so time is a tiny factor. PSU in the same formation. With about 2 and a half minutes left and the ball over midfield, they fumble a mesh on first down, second down get five, third down get stuffed. On 4th, they line up in twins for the first time of the game, try to pass, and get sacked. Ballgame.

In my mind Army should have won this game.

Verdict: The base stuff basically worked when Army wasn't fumbling (7 fumbles, lost 3) or getting called for 15 yard penalties. Monken outcoached Shoop on Xs/Os. Penn State had better players. Not one defensive adjustment all game. PSU players were taking bad angles well into the 4th quarter. This game is great for us if Shoop thinks he did a good job, because he'll never see us coming.
Click to expand...

Seriously good read, this analysis. Thanks for taking the time to post that.
 
jacket67 said:
Shoop did a good job of coaching up his players to jump on loose balls. Other than that, it's hard to tell what his defensive game plan was, because Army made too many unforced mistakes to sustain a drive. I hope UT is counting on Tech to do the same.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you exactly what his plan was. He pulled some things off the shelf that work against option and combined them.

One, is 5-2 base. That's how everyone defended wishbone back in the day. The whole trick of the flexbone was to defeat the 5-2 base option defense by breaking the bone and putting the halfbacks in the slot, so we can attack them with four verticals.

Lots of folks try to defend us with a 5 man front, the smartest of which is Bud Foster, who splits a DE very wide and then rushes one of his OLBs (or doesn't) into the gap presnap. This monkeys with the reads. PSU never monkeyed with a read once. Foster's D can also simply not blitz that LB and they're in a 4-3 to defend passing situations. PSU never was.

The other way folks defend us successfully, think UGA and Miami, is a 4-3 with a deep MLB, and the OLBs tight to the line. The OLBs eat up a blocker, the MLB is too deep to get an OL on him before he flows to the edge, and he makes like half the tackles on the day. This can work, but only if your OLBs have enough freedom so they don't get tied up, tangled up, optioned, whatever.

So it looks to me like Shoop figured he'd combine those two approaches. But the result is this giant empty space right behind the line. I mean, it's egregious. Follow the link, and pause it presnap and draw a giant circle in the gap behind the PSU line before the snap. The Gravedigger is going to get 7 yards a carry minimum with that. If we took our basic gameplan from VT last year and ran it against PSU's formation, we'd score 30, maybe more, and probably only need to call maybe four different plays the whole game.

And if Shoop doesn't have a Plan B, and starts trying to draw one up on the sidelines mid-game, holy crap look out. We might see some Bobby Bowden level stuff.

I feel good about this game.

Now all this is no guarantee that Shoop defends us like he did Army. Maybe he didn't spend a lot of time scheming against Army because Army sucked that year. Still basically does. But if if if he rolls this out against us.. ..man.

Watch their defensive alignment the first two drives this fall.
 
JJacket said:
I expect Tennessee to come out and prove that our starter can pass the ball. I also expect CPJ to have a play expecting Tennessee to expect us to pass the ball and I expect us to pass it a few times early. We could connect for a TD early on a pass. OTOH, they will not have the ability to stop the dive or midline so they are essentially dead meat.

Read. Delete post in one hour.
Click to expand...

If Tennessee lines up against us like PSU did, then We. Will. Not. Pass.

We won't have a chance, we'll be too busy scoring on the ground.
 
beej67 said:
I'll tell you exactly what his plan was. He pulled some things off the shelf that work against option and combined them.

One, is 5-2 base. That's how everyone defended wishbone back in the day. The whole trick of the flexbone was to defeat the 5-2 base option defense by breaking the bone and putting the halfbacks in the slot, so we can attack them with four verticals.

Lots of folks try to defend us with a 5 man front, the smartest of which is Bud Foster, who splits a DE very wide and then rushes one of his OLBs (or doesn't) into the gap presnap. This monkeys with the reads. PSU never monkeyed with a read once. Foster's D can also simply not blitz that LB and they're in a 4-3 to defend passing situations. PSU never was.

The other way folks defend us successfully, think UGA and Miami, is a 4-3 with a deep MLB, and the OLBs tight to the line. The OLBs eat up a blocker, the MLB is too deep to get an OL on him before he flows to the edge, and he makes like half the tackles on the day. This can work, but only if your OLBs have enough freedom so they don't get tied up, tangled up, optioned, whatever.

So it looks to me like Shoop figured he'd combine those two approaches. But the result is this giant empty space right behind the line. I mean, it's egregious. Follow the link, and pause it presnap and draw a giant circle in the gap behind the PSU line before the snap. The Gravedigger is going to get 7 yards a carry minimum with that. If we took our basic gameplan from VT last year and ran it against PSU's formation, we'd score 30, maybe more, and probably only need to call maybe four different plays the whole game.

And if Shoop doesn't have a Plan B, and starts trying to draw one up on the sidelines mid-game, holy crap look out. We might see some Bobby Bowden level stuff.

I feel good about this game.

Now all this is no guarantee that Shoop defends us like he did Army. Maybe he didn't spend a lot of time scheming against Army because Army sucked that year. Still basically does. But if if if he rolls this out against us.. ..man.

Watch their defensive alignment the first two drives this fall.
Click to expand...

beej67 said:
If Tennessee lines up against us like PSU did, then We. Will. Not. Pass.

We won't have a chance, we'll be too busy scoring on the ground.
Click to expand...

16097034.jpg
 
Deke said:
16097034.jpg
Click to expand...

Pull the video up and pause it at 12:06. Try and identify the linebackers, and you'll see what I mean. Here's a hint: all four guys of their secondary are in-frame. Then hit play, and mentally substitute Dedrick Mills as the ball carrier.
 
@beej67 if you haven't seen Last Chance U season 2 on Netflix, it's out now, and in episode 4 they film a defensive sideline that has to play against an option team. It makes me smile.
 
Might check that out tomorrow during business hours, between bits of PT.
 
Longestdays said:
Deep MLB work when you have lord of the ring Tree people for DT. Deep MLBs die on midlines and superior guards.
Click to expand...

Ents.

The preferred term is Ents.

Or Treants if you're playing Warhammer Bloodbowl. Which, btw, is a hella fun game.
 
You ever play Bloodbowl, 77?

edit:

Here's a Treant Lineman. Wood elf teams could field two. They were great linemen but if the other team ever managed to knock them down they couldn't stand back up without a bunch of help, and the rest of the elves were pussies so it was hard to get them upright again.

treant1paint1.jpg
 
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