The WSJ doesn't remember Joe Hamilton

Buzzfalcon said:
The way I remember it, after a shrewd trade with Tampa, Joe went on to win multiple MVP and SuperBowl trophies for the Falcons.

That’s how my Madden franchise played out anyway
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On arena football '05, the Georgia force made an unprecedented move by pulling Hamilton from the afl2 and making him a day 1 starter. 6 straight afl titles.
 
DeepSnap said:
"Who had the Heisman Trophy stolen from him by a fat öööö running back from Wisconsin?"

That wasn't the first time it happened..... see Link for 1954 & how many TDs the winner got.... course he got famous four years later for a TD he did score.
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You have to admit - on the list of finalists - no one was very impressive there! But yeah, zero touchdowns ?- Cassady probably should have won it.
I guess that was the way it was back in the fifties.
 
Joe Ham was a terrible NFL QB. That doesnt mean he wasn't a great college QB. Their point is actually correct, a great college QB under 6' faces astronomical odds in the NFL due to the pocket passer requirement, which is much harder for short QBs than taller QBs. Only Russell Wilson is the modern era NFL success story, and he was quite unique with his super NFL-ready arm and larger-than-average hand size. Kyler Murray is a fun college QB to watch but he is no Wilson.
 
rain said:
You have to admit - on the list of finalists - no one was very impressive there! But yeah, zero touchdowns ?- Cassady probably should have won it.
I guess that was the way it was back in the fifties.
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Ameche of course scored the Colts' winning TD in the 1958 NFL title game.... Cassady, who won the Heisman in '55, had a long career mostly with the Lions.... Guglielmi mostly was with the Redskins + a few others over 8 or 9 years.... Moegle, aside from being famous for Tommy Lewis of Alabama coming off the sideline to tackle Moegle in a Cotton Bowl, played for the 49ers.... Paul Larson prob had the best year, but 4 or 5 years in the NFL, nothing memorable..... and George Shaw "caddied" for John Unitas with the Colts, then to NYG, Stormin' Norman Van Brocklin's expansion Vikings & the Broncos..

None made the NFL HoF. Certainly a different game back then. And Wisconsin went 7-2 that year..... losses to tOSU & Iowa.
 
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TampaBayJacket said:
Joe Ham was a terrible NFL QB. That doesnt mean he wasn't a great college QB. Their point is actually correct, a great college QB under 6' faces astronomical odds in the NFL due to the pocket passer requirement, which is much harder for short QBs than taller QBs. Only Russell Wilson is the modern era NFL success story, and he was quite unique with his super NFL-ready arm and larger-than-average hand size. Kyler Murray is a fun college QB to watch but he is no Wilson.
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In the NFL, it's always a chicken-or-egg problem – is the reason no short QB's have succeeded because they just can't cut it, or are they not cutting it because they're never given the chance, kept on short leashes, etc. Give Joe Hamilton the same number of chances that Ryan Leaf got, and I think he would've been plenty successful.
 
18in32 said:
In the NFL, it's always a chicken-or-egg problem – is the reason no short QB's have succeeded because they just can't cut it, or are they not cutting it because they're never given the chance, kept on short leashes, etc. Give Joe Hamilton the same number of chances that Ryan Leaf got, and I think he would've been plenty successful.
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It's not chicken and egg. NFL is pure meritocracy where your measurables only determine your draft order and you get rewarded for production. Guys like Leaf get multiple tries because their measurables suggest a very high ceiling thus teams are more patient than a low-ceiling player like Joe Ham. There are short QBs who make the NFL, Doug Flutie comes to mind, but he produced every time he touched the ball plus he measured as an elite athlete. If you think Joe Ham couldve been a successful NFL QB then you really can't fairly evaluate the situation.
 
TampaBayJacket said:
It's not chicken and egg. NFL is pure meritocracy where your measurables only determine your draft order and you get rewarded for production. Guys like Leaf get multiple tries because their measurables suggest a very high ceiling thus teams are more patient than a low-ceiling player like Joe Ham. There are short QBs who make the NFL, Doug Flutie comes to mind, but he produced every time he touched the ball plus he measured as an elite athlete. If you think Joe Ham couldve been a successful NFL QB then you really can't fairly evaluate the situation.
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Dear Lord do you really believe that? That the NFL has perfected the science of talent evaluation? The evidence against such a sweeping claim is strong.
 
18in32 said:
Dear Lord do you really believe that? That the NFL has perfected the science of talent evaluation? The evidence against such a sweeping claim is strong.
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The NFL strikes out on a lot of player evaluations. Do you think that's actually what I'm saying? Rather, this discussion is purely focused upon Joe Ham as an NFL prospect. There's no way he couldve been a starting QB in the NFL under any circumstances. That doesnt mean he wasn't a great college player.
 
He was a good Arena League QB and a great college one, but if Tampa Bay or any other NFL team had seen enough on tape and in practice, he would've gotten a shot. It's not as if the Bucs' offense was lighting it up at that point in time.
 
There's no way he couldve been a starting QB in the NFL under any circumstances.
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18in32 said:
Because why?
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You must not watch much NFL. Nearly all NFL QBs are huge. The few shorter QB's (Brees, Wilson, Mayfield) have big arms and extreme accuracy. Hamilton had average to below average arm strength (by NFL standards), small hands, and was extremely short combined with a light frame. Wilson and Mayfield are stocky with big hands. Brees is just the most accurate NFL QB in history. All three are taller than Hamilton and are considered very short QBs.
 
TampaBayJacket said:
You must not watch much NFL. Nearly all NFL QBs are huge. The few shorter QB's (Brees, Wilson, Mayfield) have big arms and extreme accuracy. Hamilton had average to below average arm strength (by NFL standards), small hands, and was extremely short combined with a light frame. Wilson and Mayfield are stocky with big hands. Brees is just the most accurate NFL QB in history. All three are taller than Hamilton and are considered very short QBs.
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It seems like your arguments are just confirming my suspicions. Hamilton led the country in efficiency and accuracy IIRC... but his arm strength and hand size weren't good enough? So let's ignore what he actually did in favor of what our measurements lead us to believe he might do.

Obviously lots of good college players don't make good pro players. That's not my argument. My argument is that the NFL has a significant internal institutional bias, a sort of group-think, in which job security is so low and tenures are so brief (remember Jerry Glanville saying NFL stood for "not for long"?) that there's a tendency to stick with the decision that won't get me fired, rather than try the decision that violates conventional wisdom. This is one of the reasons I find the NFL to be so boring to watch.

Joe Hamilton was the 234th pick in the 2000 draft. Tom Brady was the 199th person pick in the 2000 draft. That tells me all I need to know about the supposed foresight of NFL GM's.

I'm certainly not saying that Joe Hamilton could've had Tom Brady's career. I'm saying prejudice against short QB's never really gave him a chance. He got caught in the middle of a coaching change at TB, and ended up with only four snaps before being shipped to Europe where he tore his ACL.
 
I remember driving around in my car and coming across the Tampa game where Joe got his first (only) snaps. I was so excited, because he's one of my all-time favorite Jackets, and it sucked that it went so badly for him. Not saying he could have been a great NFL QB, but I do wish he'd gotten more of a chance to see what he could do.

JRjr
 
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