Greatest transition in history... Of penalties

[Old-Fashioned UGA Hater]

Despicable, but a lot of sports people in metro Atlanta without doggie ties believe it. And Dave Braine governed with that assumption. Norm Arey was SID with that assumption. (I believe that part of the reason Johnson was hired (and Tenuta as DC before him) was the belief by management that GT needed a gimmick to win.)

Collins is the only one I know who has actively challenged it. It resulted in the 2007 class, and then Saban bought him for his methodology. He is actively challenging it again. Based on his 2007 results and the Orange Bowl with those players, I think we owe it to him to try it that way again for a while.
Hey

Yeah while everyone and their grandmother want to give reasons why tech can't do things, Collins says why not. He's changing the narrative that we aren't in the league to attract certain players and making tech a fun and cool destination. I can only imagine once he gets a little momentum that the sky's the limit. And this guy understands tech unlike a new outsider coach would. Does he need to focus on things like the penalties? Hell yes! Let's work on that coach and show some major improvement next year. It needs to be addressed big time. You're the coach, fix it and show we are growing and learning.

 

[gtfan088]

So Paul's players are so outmatched athletically in Geoff's second season that they get penalized at a rate that is leaps and bounds higher than under any season that Paul was coach, or even during Geoff's first season?

Y'all are so invested in the "lack of talent" argument that y'all use it to explain everything from personal foul penalties to being unable to kick an extra point. Get some new material.

Have to agree with you on this one. If we're going to praise CGC and the staff for things like an uptick in recruiting, we can't invent excuses for areas that have empirically worsened. And as I posted in another thread, his teams at Temple were also highly penalized. It's clearly something that, to a large degree, transcends personnel. He will need to remedy it, because we will never come close to achieving up to our talent level otherwise.

...but to sort of undercut my own argument, penalties and turnovers are also more volatile stats than things like total offense. A stacked team with a great OC will likely produce fairly consistently from year to year, whereas turnovers and penalties will fluctuate considerably. Alabama was one of the 10 most penalized teams last year; this year they're middle of the pack.

 

[gtfan088]

What? We owned TOP under CPJ.

Yes, so we chewed clock, leading to fewer possessions and fewer plays.

 

[gtrower]

What? We owned TOP under CPJ.

You can have penalties when you’re playing both offense and defense.

 

[The Champ]

Geoff Collins is part of Georgia Tech’s problem with penalties

The Yellow Jackets struggled to pass, their thin defense wilted and coach Geoff Collins raged against game officials as his team was called for an assortment of major penalties.

www.ajc.com

We also led the the country, or were close to it, every year in penalties called against our opponents. Shorter games, less opportunities for flats, no that complicated.

 

[ElCidBUZZingFAN]

We also led the the country, or were close to it, every year in penalties called against our opponents. Shorter games, less opportunities for flats, no that complicated.

Holy hell. You’re dumb. I’ll let you figure out why.

 

[wesleyd21]

If every team in the country had to suffer through what GT did versus NC State and Pitt officiating then I’d give more credence to this article.

We just finished a shortened season with back-to-back worst officiated games of all time. But yeah...stats matter. How about those 2 games represent more than 10% of our season.

 

[77GTFan]

The best Tech teams have been ones with a great work ethic, strong leadership, and discipline that leads to superior focus and execution. Ross and O’Leary teams are the best examples. Playing chippy or with a lot of swagger has not been the mark of our successful teams. This year’s team had a little bit of a Miami vibe. We would all be happy with the results of da U in their heyday, but I question whether you can pull off a Thug U style at Georgia Tech. I hope that is not the goal. We will see when the sample size is a bit larger.

 

[RussianOffense]

Do teams that get more penalties even do worse? It's taken as a given but I wonder if there's actually much correlation. I'd guess winning football games depends primarily on talent, scheme, and turnover margin. Not impossible number of penalties could even be positively correlated with those things.

Case in point: The article says 2018 Temple (Collins year 2) had way more penalties than 2017 Temple (Collins year 1), worst 10 in FBS. Yet, 2018 Temple had a better W-L record.

I'm not saying penalties don't matter, and they're frustrating as a fan, but I've never seen data to suggest they're a measure of coaching performance that matters.

 

[vapspwi]

You can have penalties when you’re playing both offense and defense.

But the run-based offense limited the total number of plays in the game by burning the clock faster - fewer overall opportunities for penalties.

But I also think the personality of the CPJ-coached teams was less swagger-based (which cut down on certain types of penalties), and (at least theoretically), penalties were more drive killing in a run-based offense so avoiding them was probably more of a focus.

JRjr

 

[OptionsJacket]

If every team in the country had to suffer through what GT did versus NC State and Pitt officiating then I’d give more credence to this article.

We just finished a shortened season with back-to-back worst officiated games of all time. But yeah...stats matter. How about those 2 games represent more than 10% of our season.

Don't forget UCF where they could hold us but if we touched them it was holding.

 

[OptionsJacket]

The best Tech teams have been ones with a great work ethic, strong leadership, and discipline that leads to superior focus and execution. Ross and O’Leary teams are the best examples. Playing chippy or with a lot of swagger has not been the mark of our successful teams. This year’s team had a little bit of a Miami vibe. We would all be happy with the results of da U in their heyday, but I question whether you can pull off a Thug U style at Georgia Tech. I hope that is not the goal. We will see when the sample size is a bit larger.

Got any examples? I don't remember anyone playing thug like or doing those things this season.

 

[Diseqc]

So Paul's players are so outmatched athletically in Geoff's second season that they get penalized at a rate that is leaps and bounds higher than under any season that Paul was coach, or even during Geoff's first season?

Y'all are so invested in the "lack of talent" argument that y'all use it to explain everything from personal foul penalties to being unable to kick an extra point. Get some new material.

Hard for OL to hold in Johnson’s offense because they’re all rolling around on the ground like fish out of water

 

[Tampa Jacket]

So Paul's players are so outmatched athletically in Geoff's second season that they get penalized at a rate that is leaps and bounds higher than under any season that Paul was coach, or even during Geoff's first season?

Y'all are so invested in the "lack of talent" argument that y'all use it to explain everything from personal foul penalties to being unable to kick an extra point. Get some new material.

You cannot possibly underestimate the disparity of talent versus other P5 teams, particularly as it pertains to running an uptempo spread offense. Johnson’s teams were able to keep games close the last 2 years because he let the clock run down to 1 second every play.

 

[GTWannaBee]

I’ll take chippy and swagger over watching our punter get body slammed with no repercussions. How many times over the last decade did the board complain that our players just rolled over for the other team?

 

[gtrower]

But the run-based offense limited the total number of plays in the game by burning the clock faster - fewer overall opportunities for penalties.

But I also think the personality of the CPJ-coached teams was less swagger-based (which cut down on certain types of penalties), and (at least theoretically), penalties were more drive killing in a run-based offense so avoiding them was probably more of a focus.

JRjr

That was literally my point.

That was my first thought as well. I’m guessing we’re on the field for ~20% more plays under CGC than under CPJ. They should adjust it for plays/game.

 

[Ed Sawyer]

You cannot possibly underestimate the disparity of talent versus other P5 teams, particularly as it pertains to running an uptempo spread offense. Johnson’s teams were able to keep games close the last 2 years because he let the clock run down to 1 second every play.

We ran 69.2 offensive plays per game this year and 59.7 offensive plays per game in 2019.

During Paul’s tenure, we never ran fewer than 59 offensive plays per game during the season and we ran 69 or more offensive plays per game in seven of the 11 seasons he was at Tech.

 

[aeromech]

We ran 69.2 offensive plays per game this year and 59.7 offensive plays per game in 2019.

During Paul’s tenure, we never ran fewer than 59 offensive plays per game during the season and we ran 69 or more offensive plays per game in seven of the 11 seasons he was at Tech.

 

[vapspwi]

We ran 69.2 offensive plays per game this year and 59.7 offensive plays per game in 2019.

During Paul’s tenure, we never ran fewer than 59 offensive plays per game during the season and we ran 69 or more offensive plays per game in seven of the 11 seasons he was at Tech.

Of course, there are both offensive and defensive penalties. Johnson offensive plays ate a lot of clock, so presumably the total number of plays (for both teams) was reduced, and therefore the opportunities for penalties were reduced.

Contrast that to a hypothetical 45 second three and out and punt leading to a 12 play drive by the opposing team. (That’s also why our games are 4 hours long now.)

(Is there any weird disparity in the stats where some penalties erase plays, so the total number of plays that actually counted doesn’t reflect the number of plays run?)

JRjr

 

[ElCidBUZZingFAN]

Of course, there are both offensive and defensive penalties. Johnson offensive plays ate a lot of clock, so presumably the total number of plays (for both teams) was reduced, and therefore the opportunities for penalties were reduced.

Contrast that to a hypothetical 45 second three and out and punt leading to a 12 play drive by the opposing team. (That’s also why our games are 4 hours long now.)

(Is there any weird disparity in the stats where some penalties erase plays, so the total number of plays that actually counted doesn’t reflect the number of plays run?)

JRjr

2018 opponents ran 64 plays per game (Tech: 4 penalties per game). 2019 opponents ran 73 plays per game (Tech: 4.5 penalties per game). 2020 opponents ran 80 plays per game (Tech: 9 penalties per game).

Your argument is that an additional 9 plays means ~1 more penalties per game (2018 vs 2019), but an extra 16 plays means an additional 5 penalties per game (2018 vs 2020).

Pace of play ain't the root cause. Particularly, when between '08 and '18, opponents could match our 12 play drives with 8 or 9 play drives of their own because our defense couldn't get off the field.