Revisionist History

jacket67 said:
When discussing replacements for CPJ, people should also keep in mind:

1. Any replacement who will take the job will probably have an inferior resume to CPJ. This current coach had never coached at the BCS level when he was hired. Finding a coach with a better resume would not be hard.

Just like Gailey, he won a national championship at a lower level. So what? The administration learned nothing from the Gailey hire, and my fear is they learned nothing from the last hire, either.

2. A young up-and-comer who does well will probably use Tech as a stepping stone to a higher profile job.
So you'd rather keep mediocrity than enjoy a few good years, and then hopefully find another up and comer? This is not 1956. Coaches are mobile everywhere--not just GT.

3. Changing the offense would probably require a few down years as the system gets adopted and players are recruited. That will be true when this coach leaves, no matter when that is.

4. If we hire a dud, we'll be stuck for 4-5 years before we can move on. Why? Auburn is on their third coach since we hired ours. What bowl are they playing in?

5. The new coach might be a better recruiter, or might be a better strategist, or might choose assistants well, but it's unlikely he will be good at everything. What your point? That we should keep the coach that we have who is mediocre at everything?
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It's not the 1950's.
 
People don't discount 2008-09 as nonexistent, they are simply upset that as more time goes on our team performs less competitively with our major rivals, and thus in the league. Since 2009, Pawl has had pretty much the same results as Gailey, but with more WTF games (Kansas, Air Force, MTSU) and 1 solitary win across all of our 4 biggest rivals.


My short list of HC/OCs, for Allen Kaholic, and in no particular order:

Ted Roof + an OC
Scott Frost
Rhett Lashlee
Chad Morris
Mike Bloomgren
Philip Montgomery
Rod Carey
Tony Petersen
Jake Spavital
Tom Herman


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As posted in the other thread Paul has a worse record against FBS opponents than Gailey had.

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I think Gailey is pretty even in the WTF games category.

Fresno St 02, Duke 03, BYU 03, Utah 05, Wake 2006 (even if it was the ACCCG), UMd 07, all say hello.
 
jacketup said:
It's not the 1950's.
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Rather than respond to each item, I would simply say that every coaching change can turn out for the better or the worse. I personally think that it is more likely that improved success will come with CPJ, than with any likely viable replacement. I believe that is true in the short term (2-5 years) and the long term (5-10) years. All the "fire CPJ" folks seem to think that every coaching change will magically lead to improvement. That's often true for a 2-9 coach, but less often true for a 7-5 coach. I'm not thrilled with where the program is now, but I've seen enough ups and downs to know that it's not a simple problem. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
 
jacket67 said:
When discussing replacements for CPJ, people should also keep in mind:

1. Any replacement who will take the job will probably have an inferior resume to CPJ.

2. A young up-and-comer who does well will probably use Tech as a stepping stone to a higher profile job.

3. Changing the offense would probably require a few down years as the system gets adopted and players are recruited.

4. If we hire a dud, we'll be stuck for 4-5 years before we can move on.

5. The new coach might be a better recruiter, or might be a better strategist, or might choose assistants well, but it's unlikely he will be good at everything.
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Is #3 going to be more difficult the longer we keep status quo?

Don't totally agree with #1. CPJ inherited a LOT at GSU (GSU) At USNA, he did not have the greatest results there either. His big win was vs a 3 - 9 (I think) ND team. His claim to fame was an O that ran for a lot of yards. Recruiting at an Academy is nothing like recruiting at a public Institution.

#2. We have had a GT alum HC use us as a stepping stone. We lost one to ND. Lost one to the NFL. Hard to turn those down, but it would show what can happen from working at GT.

Understand what you are saying, but there comes a point (not saying it is now) where change must be made - and not just for change sake.
 
The worst bunch of revisionist history that's been going around by the anti-PJ crowd, honestly, is pretending that Freidgen didn't run the triple option as his staple running play.
 
3GT said:
Im a BIG CPJ fan, and I despised CG, after end of 2003.


When CG was hired, I was jacked.

Attended the same church with a fraternity brother whose Dad worked at the GTAA at that time, that hiring CG was going to be F-ing awesome for GT.

CG was was from Georgia and that would mean good in-state recruiting potential and CG would bring NFL experience to GT.

I was BEYOND shocked when he told me his Dad thought hiring CG would be a disaster.

It was.

I never forgot that.
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Bill Lewis was a disaster. Gailey was mediocre and now CPJ has become mediocre. We were legitimately in the ACCCG the year before he was fired.. The only reason CPJ has a better record is one more free win per year.
 
Yeah, so in retrospect, the Groh hire was a bad decision, but CPJ did take pretty decisive action mid-season last year to correct it and managed to salvage the season (ACCCG, Bowl Game).

footballoutsiders' opponent-adjusted ranking of team offense
2008: 29
2009: 6
2010: 49
2011: 16
2012: 22
2013 (so far):24

We've had a top 25 offense 4 of the last 5 years, and 2010 a team-chemistry problem that CPJ still got to a bowl game even after losing the starting qb. Granted, he's the coach of the whole program and not just the offense, but you'll want to find a replacement who can match those kind of numbers with comparable talent.

If Roof can keep the D moving in the right direction, we're going to be a tough-out next year. Last year, we ended #58 in D, with a big turn around at the end. This year, so far, we are #55. However, last year we gave up 4.24 yds/carry from FBS opponents, and this year we're giving up 3.7 (total yds/play has remained about the same). However, the biggest change is in points from 30.4 to 26.5 (FBS) and 3rd Down Conversions allowed from 43.7% to 35.5% (FBS).

If you total footballoutsiders' "Offense F/+" factor over the last six years for every team and rank that total, GT's offense is #14. That's including the 2010 crap year.
 
BarrelORum said:
If PJ wins the bowl game that is four out of 6 seasons with 8 (+) wins. Were not getting rid of a coach with that type of track record.
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Basically the same numbers as Gailey. Paul just gets an extra FCS team every year to fluff it up to 8 wins.

Gailey's win % vs. FBS teams was better than Paul's
 
No one denies that Paul Johnson did great things in his first two years. He did an amazing job of getting enough players like Nesbitt, Thomas and Dwyer to buy in to a system and strive to be successful. I believe Johnson won at least one game per year more than Chan would have won in '08 and '09.

However, suggesting CPJ has been a lot better than Chan over the last four seasons is wrong. With his recruits Paul is clicking along at the 6 or 7 win mark. I don't want Paul Johnson fired. I did not want Chan Gailey fired. I think a coach that has consistent non-losing seasons at Tech, with bowl trips and top half of the conference finishes, is getting the job done given the situation we have and the teams we compete with. And, I think if you stay behind those coaches and give them time, you will have more occasional great seasons and win more championships by sticking with the coach you've got rather than changing.

I thought this in '07, and I have not changed my mind in '13. My frustration is with those who want to spin things to justify their calling for Gailey's head by pretending that the Johnson era has been so far above the Gailey era. We should have appreciated our Coach in '07 and we should appreciate the man at the helm now.
 
BarrelORum said:
Not when people are trying to criticize him based on a cut section of his work from 2010 on. That's the point.

If PJ wins the bowl game that is four out of 6 seasons with 8 (+) wins. Were not getting rid of a coach with that type of track record.
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Did you do a complete 180 in attitude since last year? If so, why?

It sure seems like I recall extended rants on lubrication being necessary for the UGA game and a general and growing dissatisfaction through the year.

I am not ready to throw out CPJ myself, but my patience is getting stretched. Admittedly, he might be one developed QB from turning things around completely. But I think his early success may have been as much about the top DCs figuring out what they wanted to do against us as the relatively superior talent.

I don't believe there is any "blueprint" to stopping the offense, and playing against it with military academy level talent is significantly different than playing against it with BCS conference talent. But you can't expect DCs at our top competition to be forever baffled by the scheme itself either.
 
Nashville Jacket said:
So how many more years are you willing tolerate mediocre results?
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As a long-time Tech fan who has suffered much, I am guessing by your standards, until they bury me. Tech fandom, thy name is mediocrity ...
:mbutthurt:

Mediocrity punctuated by occasional, perhaps very occasional, thrills of ecstasy.

That has been my 30ish years of experience. Yours? :cool:
 
77GTFan said:
No one denies that Paul Johnson did great things in his first two years. He did an amazing job of getting enough players like Nesbitt, Thomas and Dwyer to buy in to a system and strive to be successful. I believe Johnson won at least one game per year more than Chan would have won in '08 and '09.

However, suggesting CPJ has been a lot better than Chan over the last four seasons is wrong. With his recruits Paul is clicking along at the 6 or 7 win mark. I don't want Paul Johnson fired. I did not want Chan Gailey fired. I think a coach that has consistent non-losing seasons at Tech, with bowl trips and top half of the conference finishes, is getting the job done given the situation we have and the teams we compete with. And, I think if you stay behind those coaches and give them time, you will have more occasional great seasons and win more championships by sticking with the coach you've got rather than changing.

I thought this in '07, and I have not changed my mind in '13. My frustration is with those who want to spin things to justify their calling for Gailey's head by pretending that the Johnson era has been so far above the Gailey era. We should have appreciated our Coach in '07 and we should appreciate the man at the helm now.
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I'm with you. Churn for the sake of churn is an appealing kind of stupidity -- just ask your stock-broker ...
 
texstinger said:
Is #3 going to be more difficult the longer we keep status quo?

Don't totally agree with #1. CPJ inherited a LOT at GSU (GSU) At USNA, he did not have the greatest results there either. His big win was vs a 3 - 9 (I think) ND team. His claim to fame was an O that ran for a lot of yards. Recruiting at an Academy is nothing like recruiting at a public Institution.

#2. We have had a GT alum HC use us as a stepping stone. We lost one to ND. Lost one to the NFL. Hard to turn those down, but it would show what can happen from working at GT.

Understand what you are saying, but there comes a point (not saying it is now) where change must be made - and not just for change sake.
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Talk about revisionist history... What Paul Johnson did at Navy was nothing short of amazing. Navy had won a TOTAL of 1 game in the previous 2 seasons. Their recruiting restrictions speak for themselves. Yet Johnson managed to win 2, 8, 10, 8, 9, 8 games in his 6 years there. Know when the last time Navy won 10 games was? 1905. Navy had a total of five 8 win seasons since the 1950s. Paul Johnson had five IN A ROW.

Also, discrediting his GSU years because he inherited a great program is like discrediting Nick Saban because he's at Alabama. Who cares? He won multiple national championships and destroyed almost every team he played!

His last 4 years at Georgia Tech have been undeniably disappointing and mediocre, but his pre-GT resume is about as flawless as you can get. Honestly, I think that's why some people are willing to give him a lot more benefit of the doubt than they would a young guy with similar results but little to no previous experience.
 
The Champ said:
Basically the same numbers as Gailey. Paul just gets an extra FCS team every year to fluff it up to 8 wins.

Gailey's win % vs. FBS teams was better than Paul's
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Not really. Chan had the same number of games.
 
lonestarjacket said:
Did you do a complete 180 in attitude since last year? If so, why?

It sure seems like I recall extended rants on lubrication being necessary for the UGA game and a general and growing dissatisfaction through the year.

I am not ready to throw out CPJ myself, but my patience is getting stretched. Admittedly, he might be one developed QB from turning things around completely. But I think his early success may have been as much about the top DCs figuring out what they wanted to do against us as the relatively superior talent.

I don't believe there is any "blueprint" to stopping the offense, and playing against it with military academy level talent is significantly different than playing against it with BCS conference talent. But you can't expect DCs at our top competition to be forever baffled by the scheme itself either.
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Because unlike most of the pencil neck tards on this board, I actually see talent and performance improvement. He's not going to turn it entirely around in one season with a new starting QB. I'm not married to PJ but given his track record at Tech on the field and graduating players with the APR Reqs and no leniency from The Hill in recruiting I'm not supporting firing a coach and hiring another flavor to coach this team. GT needs to do some things outside of changing the coach every 6-7 years if they want to improve this program. The school and GTAA need a little soul searching. It doesn't matter who is coach. You want to exceed the 7-8 win ceiling? So do I. Firing the coach isn't the answer.

We will continue to get ass raped by the factories including UGA unless the Hill and the GTAA can get on the same page. Until wholesale changes are made or exceptions taken, we can't judge PJ very accurately.

PJ has had some growing pains like all Tech coaches. Namely for him it was not recruiting a Decent QB in his system until year 4 and also he under recruited spots. Not to mention our recruiting staff is less than half of any average school. These things have been fixed. Lets see what happens. I saw a team play a bunch of 4-5 star players to the very end and barely lose. They are going to be hungry next year. I expect some good things.
 
BarrelORum said:
Because unlike most of the pencil neck tards on this board, I actually see talent and performance improvement. He's not going to turn it entirely around in one season with a new starting QB. I'm not married to PJ but given his track record at Tech on the field and graduating players with the APR Reqs and no leniency from The Hill in recruiting I'm not supporting firing a coach and hiring another flavor to coach this team. GT needs to do some things outside of changing the coach every 6-7 years if they want to improve this program. The school and GTAA need a little soul searching. It doesn't matter who is coach. You want to exceed the 7-8 win ceiling? So do I. Firing the coach isn't the answer.

We will continue to get ass raped by the factories including UGA unless the Hill and the GTAA can get on the same page. Until wholesale changes are made or exceptions taken, we can't judge PJ very accurately.
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I agree with BOR. I would be willing to say let PJ go but I don't feel it would fix anything . Johnson paired with whatever groups be it the AA or "the hill" ...whatever.....have graduated players. Since that is what GT is about it is hypocritical to be angry with 8-4 or 7-5 on average seasons. Any of you who argue against PJ while enjoying the academic high ground are idiots.
 
i dont think we got ass raped by anyone this year. öööö Georgie

the way to do it is to show some department within the school how they can benefit from a relationship to the GTAA

materials science/textiles/etc all can have an interest in the sports industry. get the schools to support the GTAA in spirit and then we will see attitudes change.

economics forces interaction thus interrelationships

the biggest thing is to improve the math education in the state to be able to have a larger field of high school players graduating with some math skills
 
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