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WracerX said:
But they replaced Dabo’s coordinators. We don’t need to wait until 2021 or 2022 to judge Pat as an OC. This year is a generationally bad offense. Some of that is year 1 in a new O, some of it is guys being a bad fit for the new offense. I will give him 2 years, but next year better be an offense that produces towards the bottom of P5 teams and not near the bottom of the NCAA.
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They replaced their defensive coordinator after 3 1/2 years and losing in the Orange Bowl in that 3rd full year. Apples and refrigerators.
 
gtphd said:
... Maybe I'm Jan Briles. Does it matter?
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That's just you wearing a wig looking in a mirror and dreaming. It is not reality.

Techbert,
would be worried if I knew the name of Briles's wife or mother or whoever Jan is. For all I know it is a son who kicks field goals.
 
Briles can't do better with FSU talent and you want to hire him?
 
daBuzz said:
They replaced their defensive coordinator after 3 1/2 years and losing in the Orange Bowl in that 3rd full year. Apples and refrigerators.
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Dabo went 9-5 and 6-7 in his first two seasons. He fired the OC Billy Napier after that, and the team changed dramatically. The offense exploded and they have had 8 straight 10+ win seasons since then. Coordinator changes played a huge role in Clemson's rise. In fact, if Clemson had stuck with the mediocre coordinators they had, I would argue that they wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now.
 
johncu said:
Dabo went 9-5 and 6-7 in his first two seasons. He fired the OC Billy Napier after that, and the team changed dramatically. The offense exploded and they have had 8 straight 10+ win seasons since then. Coordinator changes played a huge role in Clemson's rise. In fact, if Clemson had stuck with the mediocre coordinators they had, I would argue that they wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now.
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Hmmmm. A top-flight recruiter enjoys dramatic improvement in Year 3....

Yup. Must be the fired coordinator.
 
Techbert said:
Hmmmm. A top-flight recruiter enjoys dramatic improvement in Year 3....

Yup. Must be the fired coordinator.
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Dabo was not a top flight recruiter in his first couple seasons. In fact, Clemson's 2009 recruiting class was ranked 7th in the ACC (GT was 8th). People still thought Dabo was a joke (including most on this board).

Clemson got better in 2011 because they got rid of a mediocre OC and hired Chad Morris. They hired Brent Venables a year later, and things took off from there.
 
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johncu said:
Dabo went 9-5 and 6-7 in his first two seasons. He fired the OC Billy Napier after that, and the team changed dramatically. The offense exploded and they have had 8 straight 10+ win seasons since then. Coordinator changes played a huge role in Clemson's rise. In fact, if Clemson had stuck with the mediocre coordinators they had, I would argue that they wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are now.
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Well, technically he coached 1/2 the first year PLUS those two years before he fired the OC. And then another one, at which point he fired Kevin Steele and made the single most impactful coaching decision of his career IMO when he hired Venables.

Meanwhile, the argument WracerX was making was that we shouldn't wait and give Patenaude a few years. But there is a hell of a lot of difference between the talent that Clemson had when Dabo took over and the talent that Collins inherited.

And to your point, you are oversimplifying it when you say it was just the coordinator that changed. I wonder what else happened that year on offense? It couldn't have anything to do with them getting this QB named Taj Boyd, could it? Or some wide receiver named DeAndre Hopkins? LOL...yeah, the offense exploded only because of the offensive coordinator. LOL.
 
daBuzz said:
Well, technically he coached 1/2 the first year PLUS those two years before he fired the OC. And then another one, at which point he fired Kevin Steele and made the single most impactful coaching decision of his career IMO when he hired Venables.

Meanwhile, the argument WracerX was making was that we shouldn't wait and give Patenaude a few years. But there is a hell of a lot of difference between the talent that Clemson had when Dabo took over and the talent that Collins inherited.

And to your point, you are oversimplifying it when you say it was just the coordinator that changed. I wonder what else happened that year on offense? It couldn't have anything to do with them getting this QB named Taj Boyd, could it? Or some wide receiver named DeAndre Hopkins? LOL...yeah, the offense exploded only because of the offensive coordinator. LOL.
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I was at Clemson when all of that happened. There was PLENTY of talent at Clemson in Dabo's first couple years. In fact, Boyd started at Clemson in 09. The offense sucked, and Boyd sucked too when he played his first year. Of course it's not as simple as only changing one thing, but y'all are being obtuse if you're suggesting that hiring Chad Morris and Brent Venables didn't massively impact Clemson's success. Those were top 5 nationally at their jobs.
 
johncu said:
I was at Clemson when all of that happened. There was PLENTY of talent at Clemson in Dabo's first couple years. In fact, Boyd started at Clemson in 09. The offense sucked, and Boyd sucked too when he played his first year. Of course it's not as simple as only changing one thing, but y'all are being obtuse if you're suggesting that hiring Chad Morris and Brent Venables didn't massively impact Clemson's success. Those were top 5 nationally at their jobs.
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I think it helps if you add lol after your post lol
 
johncu said:
I was at Clemson when all of that happened. There was PLENTY of talent at Clemson in Dabo's first couple years. In fact, Boyd started at Clemson in 09. The offense sucked, and Boyd sucked too when he played his first year. Of course it's not as simple as only changing one thing, but y'all are being obtuse if you're suggesting that hiring Chad Morris and Brent Venables didn't massively impact Clemson's success. Those were top 5 nationally at their jobs.
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They also made some of the highest salaries for coordinators in the division 1 football, I think Venables set records for that. Maybe if we were Clemson we could toss out coordinators every couple of years with the expectation of finding better ones. So say there was plenty of talent at Clemson and hiring a new OC made things click, that doesn't really compare to our situation where we have less talent then even our own average right now on offense; it's not certain our offense would actually be much better this year even if we had Chad Morris.

I'm not saying that Pat is obviously going to work out going forward, but that given the situation following the same path as Clemson probably isn't a great idea. Under the current circumstances, he'll have at least all of next year, maybe a year after that to prove his shit works or not. I'd want to see improvement next year but I don't know if enough is possible to make this a good offense.
 
It's going to take time and fans don't exercise patience when it comes to losing. Having said that I see improvement as the year has gone on. I think Brent Key has done tremendous work with the OL with the considering the circumstances (losing Braun, Cooper and Lee). I also have seen us battling on defense and I think Thacker is doing a better job coaching up the players than any DC we had under PJ. I do think Collins needs to insert either Yates for the 4 full games he's eligible without burning his RS, he only has 3 remaining since he was put in for a 2 point conversion or Liam Byrnes.
 
johncu said:
I was at Clemson when all of that happened. There was PLENTY of talent at Clemson in Dabo's first couple years. In fact, Boyd started at Clemson in 09. The offense sucked, and Boyd sucked too when he played his first year. Of course it's not as simple as only changing one thing, but y'all are being obtuse if you're suggesting that hiring Chad Morris and Brent Venables didn't massively impact Clemson's success. Those were top 5 nationally at their jobs.
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Nobody is arguing otherwise! The point that I was arguing against was @WracerX's retarded post that we didn't need to wait any further than this year to fire Patenaude.

Look, I have my concerns about Coach Pat as well. But I'm not a football coach and the guy we hired to run our program thought he was good enough to bring him with him when he had the chance to hire someone else as the OC. And I contend that nobody who is running an offense other than the TO was going to be successful. Hell, given the offensive line, I would bet this was going to be a year for CPJ just like 2015 was and we would have struggled under him as well. We would probably be better on offense but we'd definitely be worse on defense. My point is you have to give the guy the benefit of at least one more year and even next year is still going to be a very young and inexperienced team. But at least we'll have one class of recruits who were recruited to play in this offense plus we pick up Ezzard and Clayton as being able to play so that will help both offensively and on the defensive front line.
 
And speaking of a coach who inherited a mess of a roster and is about to lose his job because of it ...... Chad Morris.
 
daBuzz said:
Nobody is arguing otherwise! The point that I was arguing against was @WracerX's retarded post that we didn't need to wait any further than this year to fire Patenaude.

Look, I have my concerns about Coach Pat as well. But I'm not a football coach and the guy we hired to run our program thought he was good enough to bring him with him when he had the chance to hire someone else as the OC. And I contend that nobody who is running an offense other than the TO was going to be successful. Hell, given the offensive line, I would bet this was going to be a year for CPJ just like 2015 was and we would have struggled under him as well. We would probably be better on offense but we'd definitely be worse on defense. My point is you have to give the guy the benefit of at least one more year and even next year is still going to be a very young and inexperienced team. But at least we'll have one class of recruits who were recruited to play in this offense plus we pick up Ezzard and Clayton as being able to play so that will help both offensively and on the defensive front line.
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I don’t think you could possibly read my post and say that we should fire Pat after one year. I explicitly said two years. Your post said 3 or 4 years. That is way to much if our offense continues to perform anywhere nears its current level.
 
People act like this staff has no track record before Georgia Tech.
 
daBuzz said:
Nobody is arguing otherwise! The point that I was arguing against was @WracerX's retarded post that we didn't need to wait any further than this year to fire Patenaude.

Look, I have my concerns about Coach Pat as well. But I'm not a football coach and the guy we hired to run our program thought he was good enough to bring him with him when he had the chance to hire someone else as the OC. And I contend that nobody who is running an offense other than the TO was going to be successful. Hell, given the offensive line, I would bet this was going to be a year for CPJ just like 2015 was and we would have struggled under him as well. We would probably be better on offense but we'd definitely be worse on defense. My point is you have to give the guy the benefit of at least one more year and even next year is still going to be a very young and inexperienced team. But at least we'll have one class of recruits who were recruited to play in this offense plus we pick up Ezzard and Clayton as being able to play so that will help both offensively and on the defensive front line.
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Looks like we're on the same page. Talking about firing anybody now is dumb.

Still doesn't mean we can't be upset when our offense looks terrible. In 2015 (to use your example) we averaged over 29 ppg with a terrible OL, a decimated backfield, and a QB who spent most of the season injured. We only scored less than 20 points once. This year we average only 17 ppg and we haven't even hit 29 points in one game.

There are plenty of reasons why we're bad on offense, but let's not pretend like we're anything other than really, really bad.
 
johncu said:
Looks like we're on the same page. Talking about firing anybody now is dumb.

Still doesn't mean we can't be upset when our offense looks terrible. In 2015 (to use your example) we averaged over 29 ppg with a terrible OL, a decimated backfield, and a QB who spent most of the season injured. We only scored less than 20 points once. This year we average only 17 ppg and we haven't even hit 29 points in one game.

There are plenty of reasons why we're bad on offense, but let's not pretend like we're anything other than really, really bad.
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It's less a disagreement over whether the offense is (really) bad or not and more a disagreement on why.
 
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