UNCheat caught selling team-issued shoes...allowed to stagger suspensions

whenyousaybud said:
we are facing suspension and fortitude of games because we played UNC, who had athletes selling shoes. Our 2014 acc costal title will be forfeited as well as the 2008,2014 and 2016 wins over georgia. NCAA rules this is non negotiable because we should have known.
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Lack of institutional control. We’re the only P5 institute, so it must be our fault.
 
gogt5 said:
Would be THE worst thing
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What would be the worst thing? Capitalism applied to football? Or requiring SAs to be students? Right now, you have many schools paying kids that can't read thousands of dollars under the table to come play for their football team. That's the system you want to keep?
 
18in32 said:
Nevin Shapiro was an attention-whore. What he claimed was denied by dozens of people. Were they all lying? I have no idea. But it's not like this stuff wasn't researched and investigated. Maybe the investigators got it wrong, who knows? Certainly nobody on this board.
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I read the investigation results against GT. Nobody was accused of lying. Our player received some shoes from a family member. He was asked by the coaching staff before the NCAA could ask him themselves. Therefore, the NCAA ruled that we tampered with their investigation.

IIRC, Miami hired a lawyer and conducted their own investigation and the NCAA had no problem with that. Same with Auburn and Texas A&M. I think they even had a recording of Cam Newton saying the money was just too good at Auburn. Seems a little screwy to me.
 
18in32 said:
The reason was because the fake courses applied to a very small number of students, relative to the overall size of UNC.
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It's not about the number of students involved, it's about institutional control. UNC should have processes in place, like every other university, that prevents an unqualified individual from holding a for-credit class. If you want to teach a class at Tech, you need at least a master's degree in a related field. The college will check that you actually have that master's degree by contacting the school directly.

Further, there should be no way that any for-credit class should be allowed to not have a college-rigor assignment (essay, exam, etc) to justify the grade. How does the school control this? At Tech, a committee of 3-5 (depending on school) professors review your syllabus the first time you teach and approve the assignment. A random sample of graded assignments is sent for a review to make sure your grades are appropriate. Courses are periodically audited to make sure they're legitimate.

If UNC had this process in place, a secretary would not be allowed to hold a class, the lack of assignments would not have been approved, and the random sample of graded assignments would have failed review.
 
18in32 said:
You think some rando science doctoral students should have their entire professional and academic futures erailed because of the misbehavior of the black studies dept?

That doesn’t make sense to me. Need a different option.
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No. I think some rando science doctoral students should have their entire professional and academic futures derailed because of the misbehavior of the black studies dept, the faculty that enabled it for 15 years and then aided the cover-up, and the retaliation against the whistleblower. I think they should then chase a class-action lawsuit to recover their losses so they can enroll elsewhere.

I don't want to punish innocents, but I also don't want the next generation of students to get ripped off. The integrity of transcripts is foundational to the massive transaction that is higher education, and no university should be allowed to skate. This is not a victimless crime.
 
gtphd said:
It's not about the number of students involved, it's about institutional control. UNC should have processes in place, like every other university, that prevents an unqualified individual from holding a for-credit class. If you want to teach a class at Tech, you need at least a master's degree in a related field. The college will check that you actually have that master's degree by contacting the school directly.

Further, there should be no way that any for-credit class should be allowed to not have a college-rigor assignment (essay, exam, etc) to justify the grade. How does the school control this? At Tech, a committee of 3-5 (depending on school) professors review your syllabus the first time you teach and approve the assignment. A random sample of graded assignments is sent for a review to make sure your grades are appropriate. Courses are periodically audited to make sure they're legitimate.

If UNC had this process in place, a secretary would not be allowed to hold a CLASS’S NUTS IN HER MOUTH, the lack of assignments would not have been approved, and the random sample of graded assignments would have failed review.
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FIFY
 
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gtphd said:
It's not about the number of students involved, it's about institutional control. UNC should have processes in place, like every other university, that prevents an unqualified individual from holding a for-credit class. If you want to teach a class at Tech, you need at least a master's degree in a related field. The college will check that you actually have that master's degree by contacting the school directly.

Further, there should be no way that any for-credit class should be allowed to not have a college-rigor assignment (essay, exam, etc) to justify the grade. How does the school control this? At Tech, a committee of 3-5 (depending on school) professors review your syllabus the first time you teach and approve the assignment. A random sample of graded assignments is sent for a review to make sure your grades are appropriate. Courses are periodically audited to make sure they're legitimate.

If UNC had this process in place, a secretary would not be allowed to hold a class, the lack of assignments would not have been approved, and the random sample of graded assignments would have failed review.
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The number of students is a measure of the scope of the breach of institutional
control. In institutions of that size there are bad apples. I just can’t see punishing all the other students for their sins.
 
give these kids a break. how else are they gonna fund their newest tats?
 
BuzzLaw said:
I read the investigation results against GT. Nobody was accused of lying. Our player received some shoes from a family member. He was asked by the coaching staff before the NCAA could ask him themselves. Therefore, the NCAA ruled that we tampered with their investigation.

IIRC, Miami hired a lawyer and conducted their own investigation and the NCAA had no problem with that. Same with Auburn and Texas A&M. I think they even had a recording of Cam Newton saying the money was just too good at Auburn. Seems a little screwy to me.
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Look, I think the NCAA sanctions against us were absurd. But these are totally different situations. Comparing a wrong done to an apple doesn't say much about whether an orange was wronged too. Several GT personnel specifically countermanded NCAA investigators' requests during the investigation, and among other things met with the 'suspects' about what the NCAA was going to ask them.
 
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LagrangeJacket said:
The amount of people I've murdered has been very small relative to the overall size of Atlanta. Yet prosecutors still want the death penalty for some reason,
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which just goes to show you the limits of metaphor...
 
Flywheel said:
No. I think some rando science doctoral students should have their entire professional and academic futures derailed because of the misbehavior of the black studies dept, the faculty that enabled it for 15 years and then aided the cover-up, and the retaliation against the whistleblower. I think they should then chase a class-action lawsuit to recover their losses so they can enroll elsewhere.

I don't want to punish innocents, but I also don't want the next generation of students to get ripped off. The integrity of transcripts is foundational to the massive transaction that is higher education, and no university should be allowed to skate. This is not a victimless crime.
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A class-action lawsuit would not work here at all, for a dozen reasons. For example, there's no way a medical student whose accreditation is yanked is in the same position as a first year basket weaving student whose accreditation is yanked.

I agree something more should be done, but I'm not sure what, exactly. In a sense, this is the same "problem" as the crip courses that some schools have offered for years to non-athletes, just to move them past required courses (Rocks for Jocks, Poetry for Dummies, etc.). Provided the affected students are a small enough percentage of the overall student body, the world doesn't judge the entire school for their sins. It judges them based on their individual resumes. Is there any employer out there who thinks an A in self-directed black studies class is equal to an A in a physics tutorial? The world knows how the world works.

Anyhow, the last thing I want is the NCAA – of all institutions – deciding whether a school's academic standards are sufficient. And having a small percentage of the student body take a handful of crip courses shouldn't be enough to derail to entire student body. If it were, there wouldn't be any colleges left accredited, cuz this kind of thing has happened in many context over many years at many places, sometimes related to athletics but often not.

My final semester of Ancient Greek I'm pretty sure I earned an F–, but the teacher gave me a C. God bless you, professor!
 
I don't like that somehow ITT I look like I'm defending what happened at Miami and UNC. I'm not. I just don't think most people with an opinion about these situations have considered the complexity of the fact patterns. The ESPN headlines shouting allegations are usually way more interesting, and way less nuanced, than the reality.
 
18in32 said:
I don't like that somehow ITT I look like I'm defending what happened at Miami and UNC. I'm not. I just don't think most people with an opinion about these situations have considered the complexity of the fact patterns. The ESPN headlines shouting allegations are usually way more interesting, and way less nuanced, than the reality.
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I get what you're saying, but the world knowing how the world works - I won't ever hire a UNC grad. How confident are you that the rest of the courses and materials supposedly taught are as rigorous as you expect them to be? Like or not, the existence of the fake class calls into question the validity of whatever controls UNC supposedly has in place.
 
WreckRod said:
I get what you're saying, but the world knowing how the world works - I won't ever hire a UNC grad. How confident are you that the rest of the courses and materials supposedly taught are as rigorous as you expect them to be? Like or not, the existence of the fake class calls into question the validity of whatever controls UNC supposedly has in place.
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Sure, that's reasonable... though if it's true, it also suggests that the people who run UNC already have plenty of incentive to get this cleared up, without needing to derail the plans of thousands of innocent students.
 
18in32 said:
Sure, that's reasonable... though if it's true, it also suggests that the people who run UNC already have plenty of incentive to get this cleared up, without needing to derail the plans of thousands of innocent students.
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No one would be derailed. The Law students would still be ABA accredited, the engineering students would be ABET accredited, the business school would still be AACSB accredited, the MD program would be LCME accredited, etc. on top of that, the state would legislatively accredit.
 
whenyousaybud said:
we are facing suspension and fortitude of games because we played UNC, who had athletes selling shoes. Our 2014 acc costal title will be forfeited as well as the 2008,2014 and 2016 wins over georgia. NCAA rules this is non negotiable because we should have known.
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NCAA is very clear about this. You can cheat as much as you want. As long as you report it and suspend your players NCAA doesn't give a öööö if 8 of your players took turns ööööing a goat in a publix parking lot in broad daylight then turned around and got paid in Camaros by bag men. Only idiots don't report $312 of merchandise and then give up a ööööing championship trophy over it. You should be mad at DRad not NCAA.
 
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