Can we talk about Miami's fumble at the end of the game?

justafan said:

Rule 2-4-1-a:

"Player Possession
The ball is in player possession when a player has the ball firmly in their grasp by holding or controlling it with hand(s) or arm(s) while contacting the ground inbounds."

I think it's arguable the ball was not firmly in his grasp when the elbow touched.
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Just to show that rule 2-4-1-a is what is relevant here:

Rule 2-11-1:

"Fumble
ARTICLE 1 To fumble the ball is to lose player possession by any act other than passing, kicking or successful handing (AR 2-19-2-I and AR 4-1-3-I). The status of the ball is a fumble."
 
Also watch Chaney after the call and on the sidelines. He’s mad at himself. He’s not acting like a guy who’s mad about a bad call going against him. Maybe that’s just his personality, maybe he’s an own it kind of guy. But his behavior afterward isn’t saying “I got screwed”.
 
gojkts said:
Also watch Chaney after the call and on the sidelines. He’s mad at himself. He’s not acting like a guy who’s mad about a bad call going against him. Maybe that’s just his personality, maybe he’s an own it kind of guy. But his behavior afterward isn’t saying “I got screwed”.
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As bad as he felt, the crying etc the one who should have felt every bit as bad was the defensive back who was wandering around in the backfield and let Leary run right by him.
 
stinger78 said:
This is my foundational point and the question originally asked is, "What constitutes possession (control)?" Is it really P/C if a player's hand is in the cradle ripping it?

Let's look at it another way. Say a WR and a DB both make a play for a pass at the 2-yard line. The WR catches the ball, but the DB also grabs the ball as they stumble into the EZ. I believe the call is neither player has control until one pulls it away from the other and has sole possession. Is this a good analog for what happened Saturday evening?
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By rule, simultaneous posession is immediately blown dead and the offense (or receiving team) retains possession. In your scenario, the offense gets the ball at the 2.

Is it always called like that? Probably not. But that’s the rules.
 
gojkts said:
Also watch Chaney after the call and on the sidelines. He’s mad at himself. He’s not acting like a guy who’s mad about a bad call going against him. Maybe that’s just his personality, maybe he’s an own it kind of guy. But his behavior afterward isn’t saying “I got screwed”.
Click to expand...
Not sure if he's been taught this way, but I remember CPJ telling our players they had to get up off the ground with the ball. Don't let it go even if you think you were down. From his perspective all he could tell was that he lost the ball going to the ground, so he left the interpretation of a fumble open. I hope he's getting support from his team on this though because it's completely the coaches' fault that they lost.
 
not a fumble IMO. pretty sure refs are taught to err on the side of calling a fumble, let it play out, and clean it up with review. much easier to reverse a non-fumble than kill the play on an actual fumble by calling it down. i think better camera angle would have reversed it, but that's the game.
 
so what's the moratorium now on us being able to complain that we never get calls go our way and always get screwed out of a wins?
 
justafan said:

Rule 2-4-1-a:

"Player Possession
The ball is in player possession when a player has the ball firmly in their grasp by holding or controlling it with hand(s) or arm(s) while contacting the ground inbounds."

I think it's arguable the ball was not firmly in his grasp when the elbow touched.
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Firmly in his grasp would have been tucked tight into his body, nobody is going to hold the ball away from their body as they are being tackled and falling to the ground
 
Nehru Jacket said:
As bad as he felt, the crying etc the one who should have felt every bit as bad was the defensive back who was wandering around in the backfield and let Leary run right by him.
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Looked like two DBs bit on the scramble, started coming forward to defend a run. One should have stayed in coverage. Miscommunication maybe, but they shouldn’t have been on the field in the first place.
 
Vespinae said:
Not sure if he's been taught this way, but I remember CPJ telling our players they had to get up off the ground with the ball. Don't let it go even if you think you were down. From his perspective all he could tell was that he lost the ball going to the ground, so he left the interpretation of a fumble open. I hope he's getting support from his team on this though because it's completely the coaches' fault that they lost.
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He was a dumbass for not having both arms wrapped around the ball, he knows HE lost the ball and in that moment it was 100% his fault, that’s why he was crying
 
I think he was almost certainly down. But I also think letting the play stand was the right call on replay.
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