New defense thoughts

[JJacket]

It looked to me like we knew where to line up, and we were never confused about our responsibilities. That alone is an improvement over our last two, perhaps three, DCs.

Yep, 51 was a general out there.

 

[beej67]

I saw the same thing at least twice. From my POV it looked like the receiver's fault (I think Stewart once and Cottrell once). IIUC, the run-n-shoot passing offense involves lots of option routes where QB and receiver read the defense and basically go to the open spot. On one particular play, Cottrell (I think) turned upfield into double coverage instead of sitting down into what looked like a wide open hole that Marshall threw a perfect pass into. Searcy dropped an easy pass and Stewart also slipped on his route just as Marshall released the ball once, which doesn't help things out either.

Basically what I'm saying is that Marshall had a bad game for sure, but his receivers didn't make things any easier for him.

Teams that do the run and shoot well spend all practice working on option routes.

The boundary we run into with this system is a practice time boundary.

 

[johncu]

I did like how CPJ threw TQ out there in the 3rd with what seemed like 8 passing plays in a row, culminating in the Stewart broken-play score. Would be curious to know if they work on throwing mechanics in practice. Someone needs to stand by TQM and give him some instruction...or is TQM just forgetting everything during gametime?

That was my favorite part of the game and left me with a completely different feeling than I had going into halftime. Marshall proved that he CAN pass the ball consistently with a series of pretty good throws and some good pocket presence on that drive.

Most of our previous QBs relied heavily on the downfield pass, although Nesbitt and Thomas had Bay Bay and Smelter to throw comebacks to as well. Marshall doesn't seem to be a very accurate downfield passer, but apparently can actually throw short and intermediate routes with some accuracy. I liked the 6-10 yard curl routes, and we made them look pretty easy. If teams actually have to worry about stuff like that, pass coverage against us suddenly gets MUCH more complicated.

 

[gtrower]

I saw the same thing at least twice. From my POV it looked like the receiver's fault (I think Stewart once and Cottrell once). IIUC, the run-n-shoot passing offense involves lots of option routes where QB and receiver read the defense and basically go to the open spot. On one particular play, Cottrell (I think) turned upfield into double coverage instead of sitting down into what looked like a wide open hole that Marshall threw a perfect pass into. Searcy dropped an easy pass and Stewart also slipped on his route just as Marshall released the ball once, which doesn't help things out either.

Basically what I'm saying is that Marshall had a bad game for sure, but his receivers didn't make things any easier for him.

Could be true, but that’s not what CPJ had to say in the post-game and radio show. He said the ABs and receivers probably were the best units on the field week 1. ABs in particular. Made several comments about TM16 missing reads in the passing game. Including multiple “hot routes” to ABs to counter blitzes. Was a broken record about TM16 being really bad in the passing game.

 

[johncu]

Teams that do the run and shoot well spend all practice working on option routes.

The boundary we run into with this system is a practice time boundary.

Don't our QBs and WRs spend significant amounts of time in the offseason working independently on timing and such?

 

[Architorture23]

this one was definitely a missed read by either TQ or Cottrell. I tend to think it was on Nate because of the look back, but also because if it was supposed to go long, he would have been double covered.

 

[gtrower]

this one was definitely a missed read by either TQ or Cottrell. I tend to think it was on Nate because of the look back, but also because if it was supposed to go long, he would have been double covered.

Hard to tell without knowing the route, but looks to me like Cottrell was supposed to look back in case TM gave it to him immediately and continue down the field if not. And since nobody if went to cover Cottrell it looks to me like TM missed the read and then through way late.

In fact I’m more convinced of that with the field side AB crossing over to fill the void led by Cottrell. Not convinced the pass wasn’t actually going to him.

 

[Architorture23]

Hard to tell without knowing the route, but looks to me like Cottrell was supposed to look back in case TM gave it to him immediately and continue down the field if not. And since nobody if went to cover Cottrell it looks to me like TM missed the read and then through way late.

In fact I’m more convinced of that with the field side AB crossing over to fill the void led by Cottrell. Not convinced the pass wasn’t actually going to him.

safety was coming over to pick him up. seems to me that if the safety was hanging with the WR (who was running a deep cross) or drifted to the field side on the snap, then Nate would go long and be open. If the safety doesn't commit to the WR then the WR clears both the S and CB out for the AB to squat on that wheel and be wide open.

but I certainly don't "know" any of that.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

That was my favorite part of the game and left me with a completely different feeling than I had going into halftime. Marshall proved that he CAN pass the ball consistently with a series of pretty good throws and some good pocket presence on that drive.

Most of our previous QBs relied heavily on the downfield pass, although Nesbitt and Thomas had Bay Bay and Smelter to throw comebacks to as well. Marshall doesn't seem to be a very accurate downfield passer, but apparently can actually throw short and intermediate routes with some accuracy. I liked the 6-10 yard curl routes, and we made them look pretty easy. If teams actually have to worry about stuff like that, pass coverage against us suddenly gets MUCH more complicated.

You know my opinion on incorporating more short, high % passing routes into the offense. Looks like CPJ was trying to do that and agreed - some good WIDE OPEN curl routes were run.

 

[johncu]

this one was definitely a missed read by either TQ or Cottrell. I tend to think it was on Nate because of the look back, but also because if it was supposed to go long, he would have been double covered.

That's the play I was referring to. Watching live I felt pretty confident that Cottrell was wrong, but now I'm not so sure. It looks like a switch concept and Marshall either tried to throw a hot read way late or got confused about what the route was supposed to be.

I guess it goes to show why we should trust the coaches' commentary about what happened.

 

[samsgt02]

this one was definitely a missed read by either TQ or Cottrell. I tend to think it was on Nate because of the look back, but also because if it was supposed to go long, he would have been double covered.

The positive from this play is that TM looks left then right. That’s improvement in the passing game. Both on his part and the O-line giving him an extra second more than we’re used to.

 

[jacket67]

The positive from this play is that TM looks left then right. That’s improvement in the passing game. Both on his part and the O-line giving him an extra second more than we’re used to.

Unfortunately, I'm fearful that Alcorn St. might one of the few opponents this year that give him that extra second.

 

[ramblinwise1]

Lets just wait and have this discussion after Saturday. If we have a similar result we will be on to something.

 

[beej67]

this one was definitely a missed read by either TQ or Cottrell. I tend to think it was on Nate because of the look back, but also because if it was supposed to go long, he would have been double covered.

I think you guys are not looking at the full pattern here. The boundary A back runs a wheel. When we run wheels, they're basically always deep routes trying to catch a man coverage LB in a footrace mismatch. (and wheels are probably Johnson's favorite route IMO) The WR runs a hitch, and sucks the corner and safety into both guarding him. He's occupying space. The field side A back runs a shallow cross at the sticks, and he dorks up his route. If he runs a crisp route instead of lollygagging then he's wide open for an easy first down, but instead he starts trending back into a deeper area and ends up clogging up the same area the WR is in, basically neutralizing them both.

There were no missed WR reads on this pattern. I'm not sure there were any reads at all. It's just garbage route running by the field side AB.

Now, there's a question about who the hell TM was throwing to. I can't figure that one out at all. But it's not a WR read. The spot he threw to would have been open for the wheel about four steps earlier, but certainly not when TM threw the ball. If he was going to hit the wheel later, he should have waited another second or two to throw it, or put up a fade if he didn't have time.

If the field AB runs the proper shallow cross (a pattern about 4 yds deep) then he gets the first down on the catch and probably gets about ten more YAC.

 

[18in32]

I think you guys are not looking at the full pattern here. The boundary A back runs a wheel. When we run wheels, they're basically always deep routes trying to catch a man coverage LB in a footrace mismatch. (and wheels are probably Johnson's favorite route IMO) The WR runs a hitch, and sucks the corner and safety into both guarding him. He's occupying space. The field side A back runs a shallow cross at the sticks, and he dorks up his route. If he runs a crisp route instead of lollygagging then he's wide open for an easy first down, but instead he starts trending back into a deeper area and ends up clogging up the same area the WR is in, basically neutralizing them both.

There were no missed WR reads on this pattern. I'm not sure there were any reads at all. It's just garbage route running by the field side AB.

Now, there's a question about who the hell TM was throwing to. I can't figure that one out at all. But it's not a WR read. The spot he threw to would have been open for the wheel about four steps earlier, but certainly not when TM threw the ball. If he was going to hit the wheel later, he should have waited another second or two to throw it, or put up a fade if he didn't have time.

If the field AB runs the proper shallow cross (a pattern about 4 yds deep) then he gets the first down on the catch and probably gets about ten more YAC.

I buy it, but it doesn't seem like the field side A's route is *that* bad.

 

[Architorture23]

I think you guys are not looking at the full pattern here. The boundary A back runs a wheel. When we run wheels, they're basically always deep routes trying to catch a man coverage LB in a footrace mismatch. (and wheels are probably Johnson's favorite route IMO) The WR runs a hitch, and sucks the corner and safety into both guarding him. He's occupying space. The field side A back runs a shallow cross at the sticks, and he dorks up his route. If he runs a crisp route instead of lollygagging then he's wide open for an easy first down, but instead he starts trending back into a deeper area and ends up clogging up the same area the WR is in, basically neutralizing them both.

There were no missed WR reads on this pattern. I'm not sure there were any reads at all. It's just garbage route running by the field side AB.

Now, there's a question about who the hell TM was throwing to. I can't figure that one out at all. But it's not a WR read. The spot he threw to would have been open for the wheel about four steps earlier, but certainly not when TM threw the ball. If he was going to hit the wheel later, he should have waited another second or two to throw it, or put up a fade if he didn't have time.

If the field AB runs the proper shallow cross (a pattern about 4 yds deep) then he gets the first down on the catch and probably gets about ten more YAC.

Taquan never even looked at the field AB.

I do think its possible that he got caught in between and and threw it way late. But I also know that if Nate sits down on that wheel, it is an easy first down pitch and catch.

 

[beej67]

I buy it, but it doesn't seem like the field side A's route is *that* bad.

It's garbage dude. He's supposed to run a line parallel to the little yellow line a yard deeper. He starts that way, and then just starts wandering backwards.

Taquan never even looked at the field AB.

Yep. Not sure what he was thinking, although if he did end up throwing it to him he'd have been out of position anyway.

Whole play was sloppy.

I do think its possible that he got caught in between and and threw it way late. But I also know that if Nate sits down on that wheel, it is an easy first down pitch and catch.

You don't run come-back routes on a wheel. If he did, he'd be coming back into a crowded area with two other receivers. That's not how you draw plays up. We should have had guys in the right space to make the catch.

 

[gtrower]

I think you guys are not looking at the full pattern here. The boundary A back runs a wheel. When we run wheels, they're basically always deep routes trying to catch a man coverage LB in a footrace mismatch. (and wheels are probably Johnson's favorite route IMO) The WR runs a hitch, and sucks the corner and safety into both guarding him. He's occupying space. The field side A back runs a shallow cross at the sticks, and he dorks up his route. If he runs a crisp route instead of lollygagging then he's wide open for an easy first down, but instead he starts trending back into a deeper area and ends up clogging up the same area the WR is in, basically neutralizing them both.

There were no missed WR reads on this pattern. I'm not sure there were any reads at all. It's just garbage route running by the field side AB.

Now, there's a question about who the hell TM was throwing to. I can't figure that one out at all. But it's not a WR read. The spot he threw to would have been open for the wheel about four steps earlier, but certainly not when TM threw the ball. If he was going to hit the wheel later, he should have waited another second or two to throw it, or put up a fade if he didn't have time.

If the field AB runs the proper shallow cross (a pattern about 4 yds deep) then he gets the first down on the catch and probably gets about ten more YAC.

There’s an angle in the “slow motion” thread that shows TM staring down Stewart and throwing the comeback late after Stewart waits for him and then heads deep. Debatable who messed up that read. But not debatable that TM almost threw a gift INT with the AB wide open early, Stewart open after, and then the backside AB becoming open late.

 

[18in32]

It's garbage dude. He's supposed to run a line parallel to the little yellow line a yard deeper. He starts that way, and then just starts wandering backwards.

Well, you sound more knowledgeable than me, so I believe you. But the crossing AB is still wide open, it seems to me.

 

[beej67]

Well, you sound more knowledgeable than me, so I believe you. But the crossing AB is still wide open, it seems to me.

Wide open in the wrong spot. To get the muscle memory right for passes your routes are supposed to be crisp. If the QB has to pause a half second to track a guy down because he's not in the right spot, then the pass is late, or hurried.