Official Option maggots vs No-option maggots Battleground Thread

johncu said:
I do mean the 21st Century, because a lot has changed since then. Ross is a good example, and he’s the last one I could think of they doesn’t fit one of the aforementioned descriptions.

Gailey’s career record is mostly mediocre, so he falls under #2. We got exactly what you’d expect out of him, given his track record.

Johnson is nontraditional, and fits #3 perfectly.

Collins is #1, although you could make an argument for #2 if you think 2 mediocre years at Temple count as “experienced.”

Even in basketball, our last two coaching searches have resulted in other schools saying “good riddance” after we hired their coach away.
Click to expand...
Basketball is a different animal altogether during that time frame. The Paul Hewitt contract that Boobinski shelled out hamstrung basketball. Gregory was "what we could afford" and, at least to some extent, Pastner was similar.
 
daBuzz said:
Basketball is a different animal altogether during that time frame. The Paul Hewitt contract that Boobinski shelled out hamstrung basketball. Gregory was "what we could afford" and, at least to some extent, Pastner was similar.
Click to expand...
That’s my point, though. Sure-fire winners demand huge salaries that are only getting bigger. “What we can afford” is what we’ve gotten, which falls into the categories I listed.
 
johncu said:
That’s my point, though. Sure-fire winners demand huge salaries that are only getting bigger. “What we can afford” is what we’ve gotten, which falls into the categories I listed.
Click to expand...
But the point you are either avoiding, or based on your past comments, you don't believe...is that football was facing a similar hamstrung scenario. Not so much from a financial standpoint but most definitely from a talent standpoint.

The Paul Johnson years were good years in the early years and there were bright spots in the latter years as well. But ESPN, opposing coaches, the recruiting services and basically anyone who was really paying attention knew that we were destined for some rough times on the Flats until we could get some talent on the roster after Paul was gone.

I know you and a few others contend that it's possible to recruit for the TO but all evidence to date suggests otherwise. We had our fun with the TO but now we've been paying the piper. Hopefully, our bill is just about paid off with him.
 
daBuzz said:
But the point you are either avoiding, or based on your past comments, you don't believe...is that football was facing a similar hamstrung scenario. Not so much from a financial standpoint but most definitely from a talent standpoint.

The Paul Johnson years were good years in the early years and there were bright spots in the latter years as well. But ESPN, opposing coaches, the recruiting services and basically anyone who was really paying attention knew that we were destined for some rough times on the Flats until we could get some talent on the roster after Paul was gone.

I know you and a few others contend that it's possible to recruit for the TO but all evidence to date suggests otherwise. We had our fun with the TO but now we've been paying the piper. Hopefully, our bill is just about paid off with him.
Click to expand...
I don’t want the version of the TO that we had under CPJ. He is probably the best in the world at it, and he’s retired. But “option offense” doesn’t have to mean only passing a few times a game, nor does it necessarily mean flexbone or man blocking. Hell, I already said it’s not even the option I miss. It’s doing SOMETHING different, instead of just playing a ööööty version of what the factories are doing.
 
johncu said:
I don’t want the version of the TO that we had under CPJ. He is probably the best in the world at it, and he’s retired. But “option offense” doesn’t have to mean only passing a few times a game, nor does it necessarily mean flexbone or man blocking. Hell, I already said it’s not even the option I miss. It’s doing SOMETHING different, instead of just playing a ööööty version of what the factories are doing.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone on here disagrees with that sentiment.
 
johncu said:
I don’t want the version of the TO that we had under CPJ. He is probably the best in the world at it, and he’s retired. But “option offense” doesn’t have to mean only passing a few times a game, nor does it necessarily mean flexbone or man blocking. Hell, I already said it’s not even the option I miss. It’s doing SOMETHING different, instead of just playing a ööööty version of what the factories are doing.
Click to expand...

Having viewed PJ's Hawaii playbook, I'm honestly puzzled why he got so conservative once he got here. Even with JT, he didn't throw it as much as he did there. Hell, he had a TE on the Rainbow roster. As you pointed out, our best years with him were when we chunked it downfield rather than a bunch of TQM QB keepers and B-back dives. It was a strange devolution of his scheme over his time here.

Regardless, If what you are in favor of translates to a competent defense and improved recruiting, then hell yes, count me in too.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
Having viewed PJ's Hawaii playbook, I'm honestly puzzled why he got so conservative once he got here. Even with JT, he didn't throw it as much as he did there. Hell, he had a TE on the Rainbow roster. As you pointed out, our best years with him were when we chunked it downfield rather than a bunch of TQM QB keepers and B-back dives. It was a strange devolution of his scheme over his time here.

Regardless, If what you are in favor of translates to a competent defense and improved recruiting, then hell yes, count me in too.
Click to expand...
He got old and ornery.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
Having viewed PJ's Hawaii playbook, I'm honestly puzzled why he got so conservative once he got here. Even with JT, he didn't throw it as much as he did there. Hell, he had a TE on the Rainbow roster. As you pointed out, our best years with him were when we chunked it downfield rather than a bunch of TQM QB keepers and B-back dives. It was a strange devolution of his scheme over his time here.

Regardless, If what you are in favor of translates to a competent defense and improved recruiting, then hell yes, count me in too.
Click to expand...
I always got the vibe that for most years CPJ was not satisfied that our guys were adept enough at running the base offense to really add much more to their plate like all the passing concepts he used at Hawaii
 
THWG247 said:
I always got the vibe that for most years CPJ was not satisfied that our guys were adept enough at running the base offense to really add much more to their plate like all the passing concepts he used at Hawaii
Click to expand...

That and the Vad Lee experiment not going as well as hoped. 2014 solidiified his decision to go back to the basics. Never had a QB after JT either.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
Having viewed PJ's Hawaii playbook, I'm honestly puzzled why he got so conservative once he got here. Even with JT, he didn't throw it as much as he did there. Hell, he had a TE on the Rainbow roster. As you pointed out, our best years with him were when we chunked it downfield rather than a bunch of TQM QB keepers and B-back dives. It was a strange devolution of his scheme over his time here.

Regardless, If what you are in favor of translates to a competent defense and improved recruiting, then hell yes, count me in too.
Click to expand...

It was a personnel issue. We would have been absolute garbage with TQM throwing more. JT5 had terrible mechanics and got worse as the staff tried to fix them. Some guys just have to throw the way they throw (like Tebow).

I really wish Byerly hadn’t gone out with a medical issue. I think we would have made a bowl in 2017.

But the lack of a replacement QB fall directly on CPJ. And it was a two year failure.
 
WracerX said:
Yeah, we had some bad luck for sure, but it happens everywhere.

TQM should have been a star Aback that everyone loves and remembers like Roddy. But the team needed him to be a QB and that falls on CPJ.
Click to expand...

It does, but we also have smaller margins for error as we aren't bringing in tons of 4 stars. Adams was another huge loss and terrible luck.
 
smokey_wasp said:
That and the Vad Lee experiment not going as well as hoped. 2014 solidiified his decision to go back to the basics. Never had a QB after JT either.
Click to expand...
This.

2014 was incredibly successful on offense and completely validated that base option concepts could be as successful as ever, if the players could execute them. We didn’t pass a ton, but when we needed to we could. We converted plenty of 3rd and longs and hit lots of big plays that year.

Even with our poor recruiting elsewhere, if we had found another good QB I 2017 and 2018 would have been very similar to 2016.
 
johncu said:
This.

2014 was incredibly successful on offense and completely validated that base option concepts could be as successful as ever, if the players could execute them. We didn’t pass a ton, but when we needed to we could. We converted plenty of 3rd and longs and hit lots of big plays that year.

Even with our poor recruiting elsewhere, if we had found another good QB I 2017 and 2018 would have been very similar to 2016.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the rules changes put in place after our 2014 season disgusted the P5 mafia made it much more difficult to pull that kind of season off again.

I do miss our Team playing physical football. Wish we’d get back to recruiting tougher, smash mouth type football players like we used to have.
 
Liberty said:
Unfortunately the rules changes put in place after our 2014 season disgusted the P5 mafia made it much more difficult to pull that kind of season off again.

I do miss our Team playing physical football. Wish we’d get back to recruiting tougher, smash mouth type football players like we used to have.
Click to expand...
Ehh, I’m not sure I buy that. We still won 9 games in 2016 and beat UGA with those rule changes in place. Our losses came against three top 20 teams and a last second FG on the road against a solid Pitt team. We weren’t 2014 good, but it was still well above the GT mean.
 
johncu said:
This.

2014 was incredibly successful on offense and completely validated that base option concepts could be as successful as ever, if the players could execute them. We didn’t pass a ton, but when we needed to we could. We converted plenty of 3rd and longs and hit lots of big plays that year.

Even with our poor recruiting elsewhere, if we had found another good QB I 2017 and 2018 would have been very similar to 2016.
Click to expand...

I don't think 2014 at-all changed the perception that we were always going to be a run-first, run-2nd, run-3rd team though. You say as much with "We didn't pass a ton". The complete lack of an uptick in recruiting from the success of 2014 made it clear that we were never going to recruit well, whether it was due to PJ, the Scheme, or a combo of perception of both. If that season and Big Televised Wins didn't do it, nothing was gonna do it.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
I don't think 2014 at-all changed the perception that we were always going to be a run-first, run-2nd, run-3rd team though. You say as much with "We didn't pass a ton". The complete lack of an uptick in recruiting from the success of 2014 made it clear that we were never going to recruit well, whether it was due to PJ, the Scheme, or a combo of perception of both. If that season and Big Televised Wins didn't do it, nothing was gonna do it.
Click to expand...
I can agree with all of this. It was what it was by that point.

To be fair, though, we won 11 games, beat UGA, and won the OB despite poor recruiting. I think the level of talent on that team is consistently achievable at GT, which is why I felt that bailing on the system entirely rather than trying to improve recruiting, was throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
johncu said:
I can agree with all of this. It was what it was by that point.

To be fair, though, we won 11 games, beat UGA, and won the OB despite poor recruiting. I think the level of talent on that team is consistently achievable at GT, which is why I felt that bailing on the system entirely rather than trying to improve recruiting, was throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Click to expand...

That's an entirely accurate assessment but I don't think that team beats today's UGA and probably not today's Clemson, which we beat in 2014 mostly due to our D taking out their first 2 QBs.

Nice "IIWII", btw. :cheers:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top