Calvin Johnson... mediocre pro.

BarrelORum said:
Sean Hill and a hurt Stafford, and John Kitna are a thousand times better on any given play than Derek Anderson. Try again.
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Sure, I'll try with facts, you try with random statements you pull out your ass and we'll see who wins.

Stafford is worse through his first 400 career attempts than Derek Anderson was. There is no reason to believe he is better other than draft position, which also mean Tim Couch and Akili Smith should still be in the NFL.

Stafford (11 G, 397 att): 54%, 6.0 ypa, 13 TD/20 INT
Anderson (13 G, 409 att): 56%, 7.4 ypa, 25 TD/17 INT

Kitna was only around for Calvin's rookie year and then 3.5 games of his 2nd year (you know, the one where Calvin went for 78 catches, 1331 yards and 12 touchdowns).

Also, you managed to leave Dan Orlavsky, old-man Daunte Culpepper and Drew Stanton off that list of Calvin QBs. All of which are Derek Anderson-esque.

Anderson: 53%, 6.3 ypa, 49 TD/48 INT
Orlavsky: 55%, 6.2 ypa, 8 TD/8 INT
Culpepper the lion: 55%, 6.4 ypa, 7 TD/12 INT
Drew Stanton: 52%, 5.6 ypa, 1 TD/6 INT

Your turn.
 
mmbt0ne said:
Sure, I'll try with facts, you try with random statements you pull out your ass and we'll see who wins.

Stafford is worse through his first 400 career attempts than Derek Anderson was. There is no reason to believe he is better other than draft position, which also mean Tim Couch and Akili Smith should still be in the NFL.

Stafford (11 G, 397 att): 54%, 6.0 ypa, 13 TD/20 INT
Anderson (13 G, 409 att): 56%, 7.4 ypa, 25 TD/17 INT

Kitna was only around for Calvin's rookie year and then 3.5 games of his 2nd year (you know, the one where Calvin went for 78 catches, 1331 yards and 12 touchdowns).

Also, you managed to leave Dan Orlavsky, old-man Daunte Culpepper and Drew Stanton off that list of Calvin QBs. All of which are Derek Anderson-esque.

Anderson: 53%, 6.3 ypa, 49 TD/48 INT
Orlavsky: 55%, 6.2 ypa, 8 TD/8 INT
Culpepper the lion: 55%, 6.4 ypa, 7 TD/12 INT
Drew Stanton: 52%, 5.6 ypa, 1 TD/6 INT

Your turn.
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This my friends is qualified ownage. :biggthumpup:
 
mmbt0ne said:
Sure, I'll try with facts, you try with random statements you pull out your ass and we'll see who wins.

Stafford is worse through his first 400 career attempts than Derek Anderson was. There is no reason to believe he is better other than draft position, which also mean Tim Couch and Akili Smith should still be in the NFL.

Stafford (11 G, 397 att): 54%, 6.0 ypa, 13 TD/20 INT
Anderson (13 G, 409 att): 56%, 7.4 ypa, 25 TD/17 INT

Kitna was only around for Calvin's rookie year and then 3.5 games of his 2nd year (you know, the one where Calvin went for 78 catches, 1331 yards and 12 touchdowns).

Also, you managed to leave Dan Orlavsky, old-man Daunte Culpepper and Drew Stanton off that list of Calvin QBs. All of which are Derek Anderson-esque.

Anderson: 53%, 6.3 ypa, 49 TD/48 INT
Orlavsky: 55%, 6.2 ypa, 8 TD/8 INT
Culpepper the lion: 55%, 6.4 ypa, 7 TD/12 INT
Drew Stanton: 52%, 5.6 ypa, 1 TD/6 INT

Your turn.
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I'm not sure that's a totally fair. I mean Anderson was playing for the world class Browns with offensive genius Romeo Crennel as his head coach for those first 400 attempts. :eek5:
 
mmbt0ne said:
Your turn.
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Did you ever think that after you typed all that after all your research that maybe you were getting trolled just a little? Just a little? Of course you didn't.

Compare Derek Anderson stats THIS year versus all those other QB's in the years they threw for Calvin. I mean SINCE you took Culpepper as the Lion, Stafford as a Lion and took Anderson's career not throwing to Larry Fitzgerald, surely we can take Anderson as a Cardinal, right? I mean it seems only fair right? Also, where are Shawn Hill's stats?

Derek Anderson as a Cardinal:
51.8 % completion rating, 5.75 ypa, 3 TD's 5 INTs. 59.5 QB rating.

Shawn Hill as a Lion: 6.16 ypa, 5 Td's 7 INTs, 70.2 rating.


Its also not like Calvin is the sole focus of opponents defenses. They have the best young TE in the league in Pettigrew, the other receivers are serviceable, and Kevin Smith and Jahvid Best aren't exactly busts. Smith was a damn good runningback before he went down to injury last year. Jahvid Best has been living up to the first round selection.

I don't think Calvin is a mediocre pro. But I do think he has underachieved as a pro regardless of Detroit's QB situation. I mean he was supposed to be THE most dominant WR in the NFL right? He is supposed to be better than Larry Fitzgerald right?

I've also watched probably 15 Detroit games in the last 2 years and you would be amazed with the lack of separation Calvin gets on the opposing teams DB. In week 2 he had double digit targets and only caught a couple of passes.

So, no... I don't just pull stuff out of my ass. I actually watch the man's games pretty regularly because I'm a Calvin fan. Stats are funny... you can use them to make about any argument.

Like the fact that Calvin practically doubled his prior three game production, with this past game.
 
BarrelORum said:
Compare Derek Anderson stats THIS year versus all those other QB's in the years they threw for Calvin. I mean SINCE you took Culpepper as the Lion, Stafford as a Lion and took Anderson's career not throwing to Larry Fitzgerald, surely we can take Anderson as a Cardinal, right? I mean it seems only fair right? Also, where are Shawn Hill's stats?
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Exactly what other NFL team has Stafford played for?

Sean Hill is his QB this year. You were using stats from previous seasons as proof that he is mediocre. I'm willing to bet that Calvin outdoes all his stats from last season now that he has a decent QB throwing to him, but that doesn't mean he's going to put up 100 yards and a TD every single game.

BarrelORum said:
In week 2 he had double digit targets and only caught a couple of passes.
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Larry Fitz has 19 catches on 46 targets this year. Quarterback plays a big part in that number, shockingly.

Calvin has 20 on 39. You're going to have a hard time finding WRs who are targeted so often that much better than 50% unless they have a very good QB.

Based on top number of targets this year

Roddy White: 32 on 50
TO: 24 on 48
Mark Clayton: 22 on 41
Brandon Lloyd: 25 on 40
Ochocinco: 23 on 39
Boldin: 27 on 38
Brandon Marshall: 22 on 38

Guys with Peyton throwing to them
Reggie Wayne: 33 on 45
Austin Collie: 32 on 39

Even with Shaun Hill, all of those players have better QBs than Calvin and only Anquan Boldin and Roddy White have significantly better ratios.
 
BarrelORum said:
Its also not like Calvin is the sole focus of opponents defenses. They have the best young TE in the league in Pettigrew, the other receivers are serviceable, and Kevin Smith and Jahvid Best aren't exactly busts. Smith was a damn good runningback before he went down to injury last year. Jahvid Best has been living up to the first round selection.

I don't think Calvin is a mediocre pro. But I do think he has underachieved as a pro regardless of Detroit's QB situation. I mean he was supposed to be THE most dominant WR in the NFL right? He is supposed to be better than Larry Fitzgerald right?
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It's great to throw out the other weapons they have now and then base all your arguments on the last 3 seasons instead.

You know who had the 2nd most catches in 2008 and 2009 for the Detroit Lions behind Calvin?

The running back, Kevin Smith (39 in 2008, 41 in 2009).

No non-Calvin WR or TE with the Lions has had more than 35 catches either of the past two years. 35. That's 2 catches a game. Tops. For any other option when throwing the ball.

And I'm not sure who said Calvin was supposed to be the most dominant WR in the NFL. No one here is arguing that. You are the one who said he may as well be Jerricho Cotchery or Roy Williams.
 
mmbt0ne said:
This is what people resort to when they can't prove anything they say.
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LOL, you're funny. At the end of this post, I'm going to own you. and the guy who posted the "ownage" comment can come back on here bow down to my superiority of football knowledge and the rest can just STFU.

Like I said.. stats can help anyone prove an opinion. But to you that's what people resort to when they can't prove anything... ok. Lets play your game shall we?

Its my opinion that he has underperformed. My opinion is based on having watched his games. How many games have you watched of Calvin Johnson's?

In the second game this year you know how many of his 10 targets actually hit him in the hands? You know how many times he was open with separation from the DB's?

Hill threw the ball 54 times on Sunday, completing 34 times and Calvin managed to catch 6 balls for less than 26% of the total passing production of the offense.

I mean certainly someone who is on the level Calvin Johnson should be, should account for more targets and more of the offensive production right?

Calvin represents 18.5% of the completions of his team.

Calvin represents 21.6% of the targets thrown this year.

Calvin represents 22% of the total passing offense for Detroit.

Larry Fitzgerald as a comparison for THIS year only when he has a terrible QB is 45% of the completions of his team THIS year. a WHOPPING 63.8% of the targets thrown to receivers THIS year. and represents a poor 28.5% of the passing offensive production.

Like I said... Calvin isn't getting good separation as is clearly evident by these numbers AND on top of that it would seem to indicate that Calvin is underperforming to the potential he has.

Man, stats are a bitch aren't they? Like I said you can use them to make about any argument. I made a statement... I backed it up with factual evidence. Its my opinion. If you disagree, I understand... but don't ****ing tell me I don't know what I'm talking about dickhead.

You would like to think I'm talking out of my ass. But you just don't like the way I'm clear cut no bull**** and blunt. The bottom line is I have a point and its pretty evident by those numbers.
 
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It seems that Larry Fitzgerald accounts for 2 1/2 times the amount of his teams receptions than Calvin. It seems that Larry Johnson accounts for over 3 times the amount of balls thrown his way which would indicate he's more open than Calvin.

I think Calvin needs to work very hard at his route running if he wants to be a premiere WR in the league.
 
BarrelORum said:
It seems that Larry Johnson accounts for 2 1/2 times the amount of his teams receptions than Calvin. It seems that Larry Johnson accounts for over 3 times the amount of balls thrown his way which would indicate he's more open than Calvin.

I think Calvin needs to work very hard at his route running if he wants to be a premiere WR in the league.
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It sucks that Calvin is not as good of a receiver as a washed up RB who can't even catch on with a team much less catch a pass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Johnson_(American_football)
 
BarrelORum said:
I mean certainly someone who is on the level Calvin Johnson should be, should account for more targets and more of the offensive production right?
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If this is the case then Calvin (27.8% of completions, 40.3% of yards) was as good or better as a receiver in 2008 than the following:
Reggie Wayne (20.9% comp, 27.4% yards)
Andre Johnson (31.3% comp, 35.2% yards)
Randy Moss (20.4% comp, 26.6% yards)
Brandon Marshall (26.9% comp, 27.8% yards)
Larry Fitzgerald (23.0% comp, 29.4% yard)

That sure seems elite to me!

Don't try to use stats if you don't understand them. Maybe we could get you a manual to look over or something.
 
mmbt0ne said:
If this is the case then Calvin (27.8% of completions, 40.3% of yards) was as good or better as a receiver in 2008 than the following:
Reggie Wayne (20.9% comp, 27.4% yards)
Andre Johnson (31.3% comp, 35.2% yards)
Randy Moss (20.4% comp, 26.6% yards)
Brandon Marshall (26.9% comp, 27.8% yards)
Larry Fitzgerald (23.0% comp, 29.4% yard)

That sure seems elite to me!

Don't try to use stats if you don't understand them. Maybe we could get you a manual to look over or something.
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Don't get mad when I use your own stats to force feed you how to understand them fool.

Congrats, We agree. Calvin had one great year out of 4. Already said that in this thread before someone wanted to revisit it after he had a good weekend. You wanna try again?
 
BarrelORum said:
It seems that Larry Fitzgerald accounts for 2 1/2 times the amount of his teams receptions than Calvin. It seems that Larry Johnson accounts for over 3 times the amount of balls thrown his way which would indicate he's more open than Calvin.

I think Calvin needs to work very hard at his route running if he wants to be a premiere WR in the league.
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So, you're saying the calls by the OC don't have anything to do with that?
 
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