"Unprecedented" penalties TBA for PSU

GT1992 said:
What part of the constitution is that? He was given a trial and found guilty. The death penalty is legal in the constitution after having your day in court. Torture is subjective and the Geneva conventions don't govern what you do to your own citizens.
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Oh I don't know... The cruel and unusual punishment part
 
Diseqc said:
Whatever punishment is dealt out, Penn State is going to bend over and just take it.
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If they have to dump a season of football, they're not going to just take it. That's millions of dollars.
 
beej67 said:
If they have to dump a season of football, they're not going to just take it. That's millions of dollars.
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That's what I was thinking. Plus they'd probably have to forfeit this years 20M or so from the B1G TV football contract. Lots of reason to drag this out and wait for public indignation to die down.
 
Diseqc said:
Whatever punishment is dealt out, Penn State is going to bend over and just take it.

They want the story to go away. Continuing it through a long drawn out an highly publicized trial isn't something they're interested in.
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If Franco Harris and that thick-looking chick i keep seeing on ESPN are any indication, Ped St will not just go away.

Also, ISWYDT.
 
TechSBP said:
They could. But the PR would be even worse than losing.

Penn State should voluntarily announce the sanctions. It appears they aren't that smart.
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The NCAA President hinted last week he was going to work with the school. My guess is they came to an agreement on the punishment. The PSU culture is so ----ed up the self-imposed penalties wouldn't come close to what so many think should be done. So, the PR from PSU giving itself lame penalties would have been a nightmare. PSU allows the NCAA to take the brunt of the inevitable criticism that comes from tomorrow's announcement.
 
Diseqc said:
Oh I don't know... The cruel and unusual punishment part
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Yeah, I missed the torture reference earlier. We should nip that in the bud and not continue the discussion in the football forum, if as I expect it ends up going the same place it always goes in the dungeon. Suffice to say that torture is pretty stupid, gives unreliable information, and I wouldn't trust anything Sandusky might say under torture anyway, since clearly his mind is freaking warped and he lives in his own strange fantasy land where what he did isn't wrong. Who knows if his memories are even valid or viable. He could be lying to you under torture and thinking he's telling the truth. The whole idea is dumb.
 
beej67 said:
Yeah, I missed the torture reference earlier. We should nip that in the bud and not continue the discussion in the football forum, if as I expect it ends up going the same place it always goes in the dungeon. Suffice to say that torture is pretty stupid, gives unreliable information, and I wouldn't trust anything Sandusky might say under torture anyway, since clearly his mind is freaking warped and he lives in his own strange fantasy land where what he did isn't wrong. Who knows if his memories are even valid or viable. He could be lying to you under torture and thinking he's telling the truth. The whole idea is dumb.
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Good job nipping it in the bud by making a bunch of claims about it, applying it to the current discussion, and then calling it dumb. You really know how to defuse a situation :wink:.
 
beej67 said:
Yeah, I missed the torture reference earlier. We should nip that in the bud and not continue the discussion in the football forum, if as I expect it ends up going the same place it always goes in the dungeon. Suffice to say that torture is pretty stupid, gives unreliable information, and I wouldn't trust anything Sandusky might say under torture anyway, since clearly his mind is freaking warped and he lives in his own strange fantasy land where what he did isn't wrong. Who knows if his memories are even valid or viable. He could be lying to you under torture and thinking he's telling the truth. The whole idea is dumb.
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But you're not torturing Sandusky for information. Just retribution. And what is cruel or unusual? Some argue that imprisonment in itself is cruel. Would chaining him to a bed face down in the prison shower be cruel?
 
The cover-up is what is being punished, not the molestation, but the magnitude of the crimes covered up must be considered. It is far, far worse to cover up molestation than $300 of athletic apparel.

The punishment needs to be extremely severe as a warning to all the schools who think criminal matters can be handled internally. The SEC should especially take notice. Crimes, even ones much less severe than molestation, should always be handled by the police; it's not the schools' place.
 
goldbybirth said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtzulu
Criminals should not be tortured because we cannot be sure they deserve it. For example, if you assume Sandusky's guilt is a 100% certainty, which it is not, what if it turned out he had a brain tumor that caused his pedophilia. You'd be torturing someone who is handicapped.

Maybe it is worth risking torturing one innocent accused pedophile if it spares the torture of many innocent young children.

Are you talking to yourself?
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It's a complicated issue and I am of two minds about it. It's essentially the death-penalty debate.
 
gtzulu said:
The cover-up is what is being punished, not the molestation, but the magnitude of the crimes covered up must be considered. It is far, far worse to cover up molestation than $300 of athletic apparel.
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There is a major difference though; the $300 (in theory) allowed us to put a player on the field who wouldn't have been there otherwise. If it indeed happened, it was tantamount to us paying players which is a obviously a competitive advantage.

Up until this case, it's never been about the severity of a crime, but rather about the impact it had on competitive balance. In this case, it seems a lot more about the severity of the crime and the shame it has brought on college football. I don't think comparing this to our $300 violation or any other violation is really appropriate.

The punishment needs to be extremely severe as a warning to all the schools who think criminal matters can be handled internally. The SEC should especially take notice. Crimes, even ones much less severe than molestation, should always be handled by the police; it's not the schools' place.
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But it is the NCAA's place? Isn't this the NCAA trying to punish Penn State for the crime of enabling a child molestor, while the criminal justice system is doing the same thing? This paragraph seems very contradictory.
 
I'll open myself up to criticism here with this comment, but I'll play devils advocate here.

Doesn't this seem pretty far outside the scope of the NCAA? I get the lack of institutional control argument, but it has never been applied like this. What about schools that continually have arrest problems with their players? Isn't that program out of control? I get the cover-up aspect is what separates the two, but I think this starts a slippery slope when an organization skips their normal process to render a judgement like this due to public pressure.

Fire away
 
05GTCorndog said:
I'll open myself up to criticism here with this comment, but I'll play devils advocate here.

Doesn't this seem pretty far outside the scope of the NCAA? I get the lack of institutional control argument, but it has never been applied like this. What about schools that continually have arrest problems with their players? Isn't that program out of control? I get the cover-up aspect is what separates the two, but I think this starts a slippery slope when an organization skips their normal process to render a judgement like this due to public pressure.

Fire away
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jecV6.gif
 
andrew said:
But it is the NCAA's place? Isn't this the NCAA trying to punish Penn State for the crime of enabling a child molestor, while the criminal justice system is doing the same thing? This paragraph seems very contradictory.
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Sure, it's up to the NCAA to ensure the integrity of collegiate athletics. If an athletic program is putting athletics before the law, then it is operating counter to the mission of the NCAA [1]. The police can't easily say Penn State, no more football until you handle it responsibly, but the NCAA can. The NCAA would not be punishing the crime, but the extralegal (extrajudicial?) activities of PSU.

[1] http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/about+the+ncaa/who+we+are/core+values+landing+page
 
gtzulu said:
Sure, it's up to the NCAA to ensure the integrity of collegiate athletics. If an athletic program is putting athletics before the law, then it is operating counter to the mission of the NCAA [1]. The police can't easily say Penn State, no more football until you handle it responsibly, but the NCAA can. The NCAA would not be punishing the crime, but the extralegal (extrajudicial?) activities of PSU.

[1] http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/about+the+ncaa/who+we+are/core+values+landing+page
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If you do that though, then the NCAA is going to have a whole lot more schools that it can (and arguably should) punish. Look at U[sic]GA's ten offseason arrests every year...those are frequent and consistent extralegal activities of U[sic]GA that are certainly counter to the mission of the NCAA.

I see what you are saying, but the NCAA has never done it like you are saying before and to do so would really be opening Pandora's box, in my opinion.
 
andrew said:
There is a major difference though; the $300 (in theory) allowed us to put a player on the field who wouldn't have been there otherwise. If it indeed happened, it was tantamount to us paying players which is a obviously a competitive advantage.

Up until this case, it's never been about the severity of a crime, but rather about the impact it had on competitive balance. In this case, it seems a lot more about the severity of the crime and the shame it has brought on college football. I don't think comparing this to our $300 violation or any other violation is really appropriate.

But it is the NCAA's place? Isn't this the NCAA trying to punish Penn State for the crime of enabling a child molestor, while the criminal justice system is doing the same thing? This paragraph seems very contradictory.
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And this is exactly what the NCAA is about to do tomorrow.
 
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