Official Option maggots vs No-option maggots Battleground Thread

[daBuzz]

I get your point, but it’s also a coach’s job to do exactly that. PJ came in and took guys who had no idea how to run the option and won 20 games in his first 2 seasons. GC won 6 and our guys looked like they had no idea wtf to do far too often. The “historic transformation” thing is a weak excuse by Year 3.

Let's get back to the "nuance" of it though. Remember that CPJ inherited a team with a lot of future NFL players on it. Name those future NFL players on the roster Collins inherited? Percy Harvin and........? Now, Nathan Cotrell did eventually make the Jaguars as a special teams player, I think. But the point is...if/when you compare Johnson's first 3 years to Collins, it's not at all a fair comparison.

One started his tenure @ Tech with a loaded team and the other didn't. With that being said, this roster is now Collins' and it's time for him to get some on-the-field results.

And before the dumbasses all chime in with "He's gonna lose" or wtf'ever moronic post they're going to come up with, I'll also add this. Like the guy or hate the guy...I still put forth that Geoff Collins has done one service to GT that may be more valuable than any coach in my time as a Tech fan (which goes back to Bill Curry in 1984). And that is, he has proven that, at this point in time, it IS possible to go after and recruit high level athletes to Georgia Tech...to get them into the school and to keep them eligible.

Since 1984, I've self-righteously proclaimed what many of you have: "Tech is special and really hard and we can't just go after everybody like the factories can and that's why our recruiting sucks". Well, the first part is true...it's special and really hard. But the second part is proving to be a lie that I helped to perpetuate. It is possible to recruit 4 star athletes to Tech. Hopefully, he'll soon prove he can bring in a 5 star or two as well.

 

[johncu]

Who did we face in 2009 that was more talented than us? Man, you guys sure like throwing our talent under the bus to lamely further your "PJ is god!" narrative.

Clemson
Miami
FSU
VT
UGA
Clemson
Iowa

Based on talent level calculated using composite recruiting rankings, we should have lost 7 games in 2009. Games like UNC, Miss St, and UVA were more in our “league” but we beat the öööö out of them. 2014 was even more extreme - recruiting rankings suggest that we only out-talented a few teams that season. Future NFL talent on those teams backs it up.

I loved that 2009 team and those players, but teams like the ones I listed above have talent like that every year.

 

[QuadF]

Yep. It's like people think that if you don't rant and rave about firing Collins every third post, you must be "accepting mediocrity" or some such nonsense. I can dislike Collins, appreciate that he's actually doing a decent job recruiting and hope he does well since he's the Tech head coach but at the same time realize he and his staff are on the hottest of hot seats and better pull off some serious in-game performance if they're gonna stay around...and be ok with that.

And then there are the option fanatics who get bent out of shape when I point out that I think Paul Johnson did a hell of a job at Tech and was a frigging savant offensive coach. But his defenses were notoriously bad (even in 2008 and 2009 when we had 3 or 4 future NFL multi-year starters playing on those defenses) and the talent drop off during his tenure was noticeable. If you don't agree with that, argue with ESPN and the major college football publications. Pretty much every one of them said it was going to be a 4 year job to flip that roster. Hell, I distinctly remember one of the magazines has quotes from the other anonymous ACC coaches about every team in the ACC. One of them said about Tech during Johnson's last 2 years, "I don't know how Johnson is able to win as many games as he does there because they really don't have a lot of talent on that roster at all" or WTTE. While that's a testament to CPJ's ability to do more with less, it's also a frightening indictment of how far the talent pool had receded during his tenure.

Did anyone really push back on any of the DCs cpj fired? I don't think anyone failed to notice the flaws of the cpj teams, we just realize now that maybe we three the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[johncu]

Let's get back to the "nuance" of it though. Remember that CPJ inherited a team with a lot of future NFL players on it. Name those future NFL players on the roster Collins inherited? Percy Harvin and........? Now, Nathan Cotrell did eventually make the Jaguars as a special teams player, I think. But the point is...if/when you compare Johnson's first 3 years to Collins, it's not at all a fair comparison.

One started his tenure @ Tech with a loaded team and the other didn't. With that being said, this roster is now Collins' and it's time for him to get some on-the-field results.

And before the dumbasses all chime in with "He's gonna lose" or wtf'ever moronic post they're going to come up with, I'll also add this. Like the guy or hate the guy...I still put forth that Geoff Collins has done one service to GT that may be more valuable than any coach in my time as a Tech fan (which goes back to Bill Curry in 1984). And that is, he has proven that, at this point in time, it IS possible to go after and recruit high level athletes to Georgia Tech...to get them into the school and to keep them eligible.

Since 1984, I've self-righteously proclaimed what many of you have: "Tech is special and really hard and we can't just go after everybody like the factories can and that's why our recruiting sucks". Well, the first part is true...it's special and really hard. But the second part is proving to be a lie that I helped to perpetuate. It is possible to recruit 4 star athletes to Tech. Hopefully, he'll soon prove he can bring in a 5 star or two as well.

Fair enough. I didn’t intend it as a direct comparison - more of an example that it is quite possible to teach a scheme in a relatively short amount of time. I’m well aware that the 2009 team was far more “talented” than any team since.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Clemson
Miami
FSU
VT
UGA
Clemson
Iowa

Based on talent level calculated using composite recruiting rankings, we should have lost 7 games in 2009. Games like UNC, Miss St, and UVA were more in our “league” but we beat the öööö out of them. 2014 was even more extreme - recruiting rankings suggest that we only out-talented a few teams that season. Future NFL talent on those teams backs it up.

I loved that 2009 team and those players, but teams like the ones I listed above have talent like that every year.

I'll politely disagree with all but maybe 2-3 of those.

 

[daBuzz]

Did anyone really push back on any of the DCs cpj fired? I don't think anyone failed to notice the flaws of the cpj teams, we just realize now that maybe we three the baby out with the bathwater.

We. Did. Not. Fire. Paul. Johnson.
He quit. And left us with bathwater.

 

[johncu]

I'll politely disagree with all but maybe 2-3 of those.

Look at our 2009 roster and see how many players have the “NFL” symbol indicating that they played in the NFL.

2009 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Roster | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

2009 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Roster

www.sports-reference.com

We had 11 guys on the 2009 roster who would go on to play in the NFL at some point (including some very short-lived tenures). Miami had 23. Clemson and FSU had 20. UGA had 27. I could go on. Even teams like UNC and UVA had higher recruiting rankings than us AND sent more players off the 2009 roster to the NFL. Every seemingly objective stat I could find indicates that our talent was average compared to our competition.

edit - After looking through the data for all 14 of our opponents in 2009, it looks like we only had higher recruiting rankings and/or more NFL draft picks than 4 of them: Jacksonville State, Vandy, Wake, and Duke. The notion that we had some 2001-Miami type roster is way off. We had a very typical GT roster plus a few star players.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Look at our 2009 roster and see how many players have the “NFL” symbol indicating that they played in the NFL.

2009 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Roster | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

2009 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Roster

www.sports-reference.com

We had 11 guys on the 2009 roster who would go on to play in the NFL at some point (including some very short-lived tenures). Miami had 23. Clemson had 20. UGA had 27. I could go on. Even teams like UNC and UVA had higher recruiting rankings than us AND sent more players off the 2009 roster to the NFL. Every seemingly objective stat I could find indicates that our talent was average compared to our competition.

those would be the 3. NFL or no, I don't believe the UVA and UNC teams were better than we were nor that we needed the Magical Scheme to beat them. That we just had no real chance if we weren't running the Mighty TO.

And obviously the Scheme didn't beat uga anyway.

 

[QuadF]

We. Did. Not. Fire. Paul. Johnson.
He quit. And left us with bathwater.

He quit as he lost institutional support. The fan base wanted him out. Should he have waited till he got fired? He was on the hotseat and the consensus at the time seemed to be that he did us a solid by not making us fire him.

 

[Liberty]

Define "many others, if at all" because Keith Brooking, Travares Tillman, Dez White, Tony Hollings, Daryl Smith, Tony Hargrove, Keyaron Fox, Gerris Wilkinson, Philip Wheeler, Michael Johnson, Derrick Morgan, Demaryius Thomas, and Morgan Burnett seems like "many" to me. Those are all the early round GT draft picks (besides Calvin) from 1998-2010; O'Leary and Gailey recruits

Since 2010, we have had Stephen Hill, Jeremiah Attaouchu and Adam Gotsis. That's it.

List of Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets in the NFL draft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Look at this list and see what happened post-2014. This also coincides with records of 3-9, 9-4, 5-6, 7-6, 3-9, 3-7, 3-9. It's about the talent and this list is all anybody needs to know about why the option is gone.

I’m not talking about the option, I merely stated historically the NFL teams have waited on GT draft picks because they’ve always been able to get them down the order, ie cheaper.

You cited Morgan Burnett, good example. 2 time All American, round 3 pick 71 in 2010. 16th DB selected. I think his college and NFL careers bear out he was drafted late. I’ll spot you he was in a loaded BB draft with Berry, McCourty, etc but there’s really no reason for him to have dropped so low. Take a gander at the previous 10 DBs taken right before him. Embarassing. Daryl Smith was the 6th LB drafted. Career best LB out of that class. Phillip Wheeler went late 3rd round pick 93, 11th LB selected. Probably the 4th best LB in that class. I could go on. It is consistent from coach to coach. We’re not an NFL draft mecca despite a large percentage of our top performers routinely having long, productive NFL careers barring injury of course. GT players are an NFL bargain, every damn year. Even Calvin was 1 spot too low!

 

[johncu]

those would be the 3. NFL or no, I don't believe the UVA and UNC teams were better than we were nor that we needed the Magical Scheme to beat them. That we just had no real chance if we weren't running the Mighty TO.

And obviously the Scheme didn't beat uga anyway.

You’re welcome to maintain your opinion, even when it flies in the face of facts.

 

[Wylie76]

Triple option sucks dick. And so do it’s devotees.

You seem versed in the art of sucking dick? Is this an assumption....or are you personally comparing the Trip Option to your experience in the sucking of the dick

 

[RamblinWreck92]

You’re welcome to maintain your opinion, even when it flies in the face of facts.

Ironically, that's the first requirement for entrance into the PJ Fan Club.

We were as-good or better than all but maybe 3 teams in 2009. The scheme was nice but isn't the panacea you and others pretend it to be.

It's funny how you ignore stats that fly in the face of "The TO Is God" but then expect me to worship the ones you cited. By "funny", I mean "hypocritical".

 

[RamblinWreck92]

You seem versed in the art of sucking dick? Is this an assumption....or are you personally comparing the Trip Option to your experience in the sucking of the dick

the ad hominem attack. Always the first sign of a lost debate. This is Rule #4 in the "How To Defend The TO", as published by the PJ Fan Club.

Rule #1: Mention Rushing stats.
Rule #2: Point again to those damn rushing stats!!!
Rule #3: ORANGE BOWL GODDAMNIT!!!
Rule #4: Ad Hominem attack.

 

[daBuzz]

He quit as he lost institutional support. The fan base wanted him out. Should he have waited till he got fired? He was on the hotseat and the consensus at the time seemed to be that he did us a solid by not making us fire him.

No. You're making assumptions as to why he quit. Many people have speculated that he quit because he knew how little talent he had coming back the following year. Regardless....he quit. We did not throw any baby or bathwater out. He quit.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

No. You're making assumptions as to why he quit. Many people have speculated that he quit because he knew how little talent he had coming back the following year. Regardless....he quit. We did not throw any baby or bathwater out. He quit.

If his timing was different, maybe we don't even end up with CGC.

So there ya go: PJ is why we have CGC. Watch heads asplode!

 

[Wylie76]

the ad hominem attack. Always the first sign of a lost debate. This is Rule #4 in the "How To Defend The TO", as published by the PJ Fan Club.

Rule #1: Mention Rushing stats.
Rule #2: Point again to those damn rushing stats!!!
Rule #3: ORANGE BOWL GODDAMNIT!!!
Rule #4: Ad Hominem attack.

I hate the TO (but any football student will tell you the importance of running the ball and control the LOS)....nevermind, I'm probably better off writing it in crayon for you with x's and o's .... But as of now, I'd rather have CPJ than Collins any day of the week (I don't care if he ran the Annexation of Puerto Rico). I guess I'm Crazy.

 

[johncu]

Ironically, that's the first requirement for entrance into the PJ Fan Club.

We were as-good or better than all but maybe 3 teams in 2009. The scheme was nice but isn't the panacea you and others pretend it to be.

It's funny how you ignore stats that fly in the face of "The TO Is God" but then expect me to worship the ones you cited. By "funny", I mean "hypocritical".

What stats am I ignoring? I posted a few because I get pretty tired of people basing their entire argument on their personal opinion or a strawman that they have created to represent the other side.

I’ve never suggested that the TO or any other scheme is a panacea. It’s foolish to suggest that, just like it’s foolish to suggest that it “doesn’t work” despite 11 years of it “working” pretty damn well given our talent level. Like @daBuzz said, it’s perfectly possible to acknowledge that CPJ was an offensive genius for us, but also didn’t recruit well or field a defense worth a damn.

I’ll admit that the CPJ era was by far my favorite at GT (I’m too young to count 1990), but it’s not like I’m option or bust. I’d be happy with any scheme if our players ran it well and we used it to take advantage of our opponents’ weaknesses.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

I hate the TO (but any football student will tell you the importance of running the ball and control the LOS)....nevermind, I'm probably better off writing it in crayon for you with x's and o's .... But as of now, I'd rather have CPJ than Collins any day of the week (I don't care if he ran the Annexation of Puerto Rico). I guess I'm Crazy.

Kinda got Rule #1 & #2 in there and went straight to #4. your buddy GTFELCH is out of jail and will commend your performance at this thursday's meeting of the PJFC.

 

[johncu]

No. You're making assumptions as to why he quit. Many people have speculated that he quit because he knew how little talent he had coming back the following year. Regardless....he quit. We did not throw any baby or bathwater out. He quit.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water = ignoring candidates like Monken (or even Chadwell) because “MuH oPtIoN.” Nobody forced us to undergo the Greatest Transformation of All-Time. It’s obvious that we prioritized getting away from the option at all costs, and here we are.