Official Option maggots vs No-option maggots Battleground Thread

[RamblinWreck92]

Not you personally, but obviously people who do make those decisions felt similarly.



What?

No waffling here - I think I’ve been pretty consistent in saying that we consistently punched above our weight on offense. No need to cherry-pick specific games that did or did not go our way when there are stats that show over a decade plus that our offense was almost always better than you would expect with our talent. In 11 years under CPJ, our offense was better than our average recruiting rankings 10 times. 2015 was the lone exception.

And FWIW, it’s not about some magic system being an equalizer. There are some really ööööty option coaches out there. We just had a really good one.

The TO doesn't exist in an offense-only vacuum though. Its effects on the Defense cannot be discounted and those effects were 100% dismal.
PJ was our HC, not our OC. Frankly, he dropped the ball pretty badly on Defense, ST, and Recruiting during his time here. The TO is partly to blame for D and Recruiting but PJ owns a bit of all of it.

 

[Liberty]

The TO doesn't exist in an offense-only vacuum though. Its effects on the Defense cannot be discounted and those effects were 100% dismal.
PJ was our HC, not our OC. Frankly, he dropped the ball pretty badly on Defense, ST, and Recruiting during his time here. The TO is partly to blame for D and Recruiting but PJ owns a bit of all of it.

We’re practicing against a real offense now. We have better players. I’m sure the coaches think they’re better. The ACC is worse overall.

How can our D be worse?

 

[johncu]

The TO doesn't exist in an offense-only vacuum though. Its effects on the Defense cannot be discounted and those effects were 100% dismal.
PJ was our HC, not our OC. Frankly, he dropped the ball pretty badly on Defense, ST, and Recruiting during his time here. The TO is partly to blame for D and Recruiting but PJ owns a bit of all of it.

Sure, he does. It’s his job to find a way to sell his system to recruits, and he didn’t do it well enough. Had we fielded a Gailey-level defense, we probably have 3-4 ACC titles and the 2014 team would’ve been a playoff contender.

But this debate was about an offensive system. I think it’s reasonable to wonder if a better recruiter could succeed at GT with an option-based offense.

 

[johncu]

We’re practicing against a real offense now. We have better players. I’m sure the coaches think they’re better. The ACC is worse overall.

How can our D be worse?

This.

Our players are better, but our defense is indisputably worse. Ironically, the pass defense is worst of all. If the defense was bad because of practicing against the option or whatever, how is it possibly worse now?

 

[Techbert]

...,

How can our D be worse?

Because the last coach left NOTHING on the DL, and despite what a lot of you think there is no short cut for rebuilding offensive and defensive lines.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

We’re practicing against a real offense now. We have better players. I’m sure the coaches think they’re better. The ACC is worse overall.

How can our D be worse?

Unbelievably, D coaching is worse.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Sure, he does. It’s his job to find a way to sell his system to recruits, and he didn’t do it well enough. Had we fielded a Gailey-level defense, we probably have 3-4 ACC titles and the 2014 team would’ve been a playoff contender.

But this debate was about an offensive system. I think it’s reasonable to wonder if a better recruiter could succeed at GT with an option-based offense.

Reasonable but not logical. The option anti-recruits itself. It's one of the bigger negatives of the system. Post '09 & '14 saw no real uptick in recruiting. As happy as fans were about those seasons, it didn't translate into high school kids suddenly wanting to come play Option football. OL kids don't want to Chop & Flop, WRs don't want to have 20 or so passes, tops, thrown their way for an entire season and edge-blocking 95% of the time, TEs want to have their position exist on a roster, etc etc. The primary ball toucher in PJ's offense was the QB. Even good RBs knew they were going to time-share with 8 other guys and never get more than 10 or so carries / game.

It was strange that PJ couldn't find anyone better than TQM though.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

This.

Our players are better, but our defense is indisputably worse. Ironically, the pass defense is worst of all. If the defense was bad because of practicing against the option or whatever, how is it possibly worse now?

even worse coaching. Thacker appears to be CGC's Mike Sewak, a guy we scratched our heads about every year that PJ never let go. (Some speculated that Sewak had pics of PJ naked with a goat or something, he was that bad)

Thack is crap and CGC is clearly married to the guy so they're both going to be playing the violin on the decks of the Titanic next fall.

I don't get it either.

 

[aeromech]

Because the last coach left NOTHING on the DL, and despite what a lot of you think there is no short cut for rebuilding offensive and defensive lines.

That was a good excuse for the D in seasons 1 & 2, not so much in season 3, and definitely won't be valid in season 4. While I agree CPJ did not leave much on the DL, with use of the portal and recruiting it should have been vastly improved last year, it wasn't. It doesn't take 4+ years to build a DL, not even before the portal. Some of our best DL at GT have come in and played as sophomores. The 'it takes a gazillion years to build an OL' argument is a reach, let's not try and stretch it to the DL as well.

 

[daBuzz]

The 'it takes a gazillion years to build an OL' argument is a reach,

 

[QuadF]

Because the last coach left NOTHING on the DL, and despite what a lot of you think there is no short cut for rebuilding offensive and defensive lines.

Not entirely true. Adams died.

Ol was thin, and I agree there's no shortcut, but the new staff failed to retain depth the last 3 years (5 total, iirc). It's been discussed to death already.

 

[stech81]

even worse coaching. Thacker appears to be CGC's Mike Sewak, a guy we scratched our heads about every year that PJ never let go. (Some speculated that Sewak had pics of PJ naked with a goat or something, he was that bad)

Thack is crap and CGC is clearly married to the guy so they're both going to be playing the violin on the decks of the Titanic next fall.

I don't get it either.

I think you may be surprised before spring practice Thacker WILL NOT be DC. Looking like CGC will ( not saying that is good or bad) and they will look for a ST coach to replace Thacker.

 

[wesleyd21]

What the CPJ fanboys don't seem to understand is that every offense is designed to succeed. There is no schematic advantage that exists in the TO that doesn't exist in other offenses. Where CPJ excelled was in having savant level in game adjustments and having a disciplined program. In other words, he would've been a good coach running any offense.

As the offensive coordinator, though, he was our Tenuta. The very things that allowed us to be successful would, at times, be exposed going against knowledgeable opponents and we would be stuck having such a limited set of plays to call upon.

Under Gailey, we were pretty much ranked at some point every season. Under CPJ, we were rarely considered Top 25. I do not want to mimic the GSU path (read my previous posts to that effect). I wanted Geoff fired after year 2 (OK really after the Citadel game), but don't get sucked into the false dichotomy of TO or Geoff.

There are hundreds of more capable coaches than our current one that run a multitude of schemes that are all designed to be successful. Pick a coach who would offend soyboys and let's go rebuild the damn program.

Remember when CPJ called Tenuta’s defense a “feast or famine system”?

Man, talk about irony.

 

[BainbridgeJacket]

Wow. I disagree with most of that but obvs this isn’t the place to discuss. Peace —

Fiiiine, avatar changed.

 

[smokey_wasp]

But this debate was about an offensive system. I think it’s reasonable to wonder if a better recruiter could succeed at GT with an option-based offense.

I agree that's a reasonable hypothetical. My take is that nobody was going to recruit to the flexbone and <10 passing attempts per game. Non-starter no matter what your sales pitch is. But a Coastal Carolina type offense is at least interesting because it's probably what CPJ should have evolved his offense into. If you could recruit mid-pack ACC with that, maybe you'd have something?

 

[Liberty]

I agree that's a reasonable hypothetical. My take is that nobody was going to recruit to the flexbone and <10 passing attempts per game. But a Coastal Carolina type offense is at least interesting because it's probably what CPJ should have evolved his offense into. If you could recruit mid-pack ACC with that, maybe you'd have something?

It’s what we should have evolved our offense into under Goober, not the unrecognizable mess he created. That is the big problem. The 3O had run its course and needed to evolve. Had we not burned the house down, we’re not 3-3-3.

 

[daBuzz]

It’s what we should have evolved our offense into under Goober, not the unrecognizable mess he created. That is the big problem. The 3O had run its course and needed to evolve. Had we not burned the house down, we’re not 3-3-3.

And how many college games have you won as a head coach that we should all anoint your opinion as the gospel? Or are you just a goober, too?

Because I have a newsflash for you: if it were as simple as running a Coastal Carolina-style offense to be successful, every team would do it.
The reason Paul Johnson's offense was successful was not due to it being an option offense, it was because Paul Johnson was a master at running it and making in-game adjustments. If he leaves, you don't just plug in another coach/offensive style with sub-par talent and become immediately successful. And to suggest that is the case is the height of lunacy.

We were inevitably going to have to pay the price for the lack of talent we had. We've been paying it for 3 years as the roster was turned over. Hopefully by now, Collins and his new people will do a better job at coaching on the field and will continue to recruit as they have. But what we went through with CPJ was like putting all of your expenses on a credit card...at some point the bill comes due and you have to pay it.

 

[Liberty]

And how many college games have you won as a head coach that we should all anoint your opinion as the gospel? Or are you just a goober, too?

Same as you, none, but I can tell a piece of öööö when I see one. You can’t. You might be the only one on here that wanted to retain Goober. Damn near everyone else wanted him gone 2 years ago.

 

[daBuzz]

Same as you, none, but I can tell a piece of öööö when I see one. You can’t. You might be the only one on here that wanted to retain Goober. Damn near everyone else wanted him gone 2 years ago.

Well I guess I'm the only f'ing sane one then. Because if your dumb ass thinks we could have afforded a $20 million buyout AND pay a new coach then you're the biggest fool on this board.

Some of you keep misrepresenting the quote from Quinlan where he said "the money could be found" prior to this year if they were going to buy Collins out. What ISN'T being said is that, if they did find the money, it would have tapped out everything we had available and then we would have been back to square one.

Have you seen how much college coaching salaries have jumped since we hired Collins? We are paying him something like $3 million'ish per year. Here's Lincoln Riley's contract with USC, to put things in a perspective that even someone as thick in the head as yourself might be able to comprehend:

You ready to pony up that kind of money to go get the top of the game? No? Then WTF do you think even a 'middle-of-the-road" coach is gonna command right now? $6 - $8 million per year? Yep, somewhere in there. So unless you're prepared to pony up a check for the buyout and that kind of scratch to hire a new coach (and it's gonna have to be a multi-year deal too), then how about you just STFU for a bit?

We're stuck with him for at least another year, no matter how much you whine like a little girl about it.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Same as you, none, but I can tell a piece of öööö when I see one. You can’t. You might be the only one on here that wanted to retain Goober. Damn near everyone else wanted him gone 2 years ago.

2 years ago? Hell, I wanted to give him a shot 2 years ago. The guy inherited the most-bare cupboard in GT football history.

You probably wanted Boss Ross fired after the '87 season.