Texas A&M too SEC ?

No one is saying they literally add nothing, but market-wise they add nothing. SEC already has the entire SC market. Adding another team within that footprint does nothing to add to the TV footprint.

TV isn't going to value the 100% penetration over the 50% penetration proportionally.

Respectfully, I don't think you know what you are talking about either. I'm assuming based on your handle that you went to GT, graduated in 2005, and weren't into marketing. Wouldn't seem that you have near the real world experience required to assess the real issues, especially if you are an engineer and not working in a related field. You certainly haven't read (or likely have access to) any advanced marketing reports about what South Carolina markets the SEC has infiltrated (obviously Columbia) and which ones they haven't (obviously Clemson). There's a lot of grey area in between.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a single Clemson fan out there who would watch more SEC games if his/her team was in that conference (which is your argument that the SEC can't improve its TV market by adding Clemson). I also find it hard to believe that there are no neutral or disinterested fans in the state who may watch more SEC sports if the state is unified in one conference (also your argument).

The issue is incredibly complex, particularly when you are just guessing at the value of adding Clemson. I guarantee you the SEC has a report that at least breaks South Carolina down by region (or even by county), and analyzes their strengths and weaknesses in each area, factors in how many eyeballs are in each one, and comes up with a dollar figure for each one. None of us have access to that (or the similar reports I'm sure exist with regard to A&M, FSU, us, Miami, VT, Texas, Oklahoma, etc. etc.).
 
I don't believe the FSU, Clemson, or even Tech stories because I don't think UF, UGA, or USC want their rival in the conference. There have been multiple stories about those 3 along with Kentucky banding together to keep their rivals from joining.
 
Not in terms of TV market. The SEC already has access to as much of the TV market as they can get in SC just a it already has TV access to the entire state of Georgia, despite a few GT fans.

Put it this way, if MSU was not already part of the SEC then I doubt they would be a prime target. Candidates would either need ot expand the reach or add prestige. (You might see Clemson as having enough prestige to be a target.)

You are confusing the physical TV footprint, which has nothing to do with money, and viewer eyeballs, which drive the money. Having "access" to SC isn't relevant to a determination of market infiltration / $ - what we are talking about is ratings, i.e. eyeballs. The SEC probably has "TV access" to pretty much every household in the country anyways because it is on ESPN/CBS. What will make the SEC more money isn't access to markets per se, but instead getting people in those markets to tune in. If Clemson fans are watching Maryland-NC State on Jefferson Pilot, those are eyeballs the ACC is getting credit for, even though they could just as easily change the channel to Fla-Tenn on ESPN.
 
Respectfully, I don't think you know what you are talking about either. I'm assuming based on your handle that you went to GT, graduated in 2005, and weren't into marketing. Wouldn't seem that you have near the real world experience required to assess the real issues, especially if you are an engineer and not working in a related field. You certainly haven't read (or likely have access to) any advanced marketing reports about what South Carolina markets the SEC has infiltrated (obviously Columbia) and which ones they haven't (obviously Clemson). There's a lot of grey area in between.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a single Clemson fan out there who would watch more SEC games if his/her team was in that conference (which is your argument that the SEC can't improve its TV market by adding Clemson). I also find it hard to believe that there are no neutral or disinterested fans in the state who may watch more SEC sports if the state is unified in one conference (also your argument).

The issue is incredibly complex, particularly when you are just guessing at the value of adding Clemson. I guarantee you the SEC has a report that at least breaks South Carolina down by region (or even by county), and analyzes their strengths and weaknesses in each area, factors in how many eyeballs are in each one, and comes up with a dollar figure for each one. None of us have access to that (or the similar reports I'm sure exist with regard to A&M, FSU, us, Miami, VT, Texas, Oklahoma, etc. etc.).

There's also the assumption that all Clemson grads/fans reside in South Carolina...which might actually be true.
 
Respectfully, I don't think you know what you are talking about either. I'm assuming based on your handle that you went to GT, graduated in 2005, and weren't into marketing. Wouldn't seem that you have near the real world experience required to assess the real issues, especially if you are an engineer and not working in a related field. You certainly haven't read (or likely have access to) any advanced marketing reports about what South Carolina markets the SEC has infiltrated (obviously Columbia) and which ones they haven't (obviously Clemson). There's a lot of grey area in between.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a single Clemson fan out there who would watch more SEC games if his/her team was in that conference (which is your argument that the SEC can't improve its TV market by adding Clemson). I also find it hard to believe that there are no neutral or disinterested fans in the state who may watch more SEC sports if the state is unified in one conference (also your argument).

The issue is incredibly complex, particularly when you are just guessing at the value of adding Clemson. I guarantee you the SEC has a report that at least breaks South Carolina down by region (or even by county), and analyzes their strengths and weaknesses in each area, factors in how many eyeballs are in each one, and comes up with a dollar figure for each one. None of us have access to that (or the similar reports I'm sure exist with regard to A&M, FSU, us, Miami, VT, Texas, Oklahoma, etc. etc.).

Alright Pal. Talk down to me all you want, you are the one who is way off base here and anyone who has followed this expansion discussion the past few years knows it.

You are arguing that adding more viewers in a small state makes sound financial sense for the SEC. Do you really think Clemson fans aren't already watching the SEC games? Do you really think there will be that significant of a bump in ratings to justify this? If you do, you are an idiot.
 
TV isn't going to value the 100% penetration over the 50% penetration proportionally.

This is probably right (in terms of fan percentage), but I'm not going to get into what percentage of Clemson fans watch USCe games regardless, what percentage of them watch SEC games regardless, what percent wouldn't watch SEC games even with a switch, etc. etc.

It's a much easier exercise to demonstrate that they don't have the market cornered, and there is at least some value there.

Whether that means the SEC values FSU (even though Florida is already there) or Clemson (even though SC is already there) more, I have no clue.
 
Alright asshole. Talk down to me all you want, you are the one who is way off base here and anyone who has followed this expansion discussion the past few years knows it.

You are arguing that adding more viewers in a small state makes sound financial sense for the SEC.

I'm not talking down to you at all - was I wrong on you being an engineer with absolutely no experience in marketing or television?

And re-read my posts - I'm not talking about adding more viewers making sound financial sense. First and foremost, my point is that the state has some value, not NO value. Too many of you are saying its stupid to add Clemson because they don't add any TV value. That's simply not true. Whether it makes sound financial sense who knows because none of us know what the hell we are talking about in terms of financial value. I haven't read any reports or seen any valuation of the SC television market, nor have you. My guess is that adding Clemson wouldn't come close to adding, say, a Texas, but is probably financially comparable to adding WVU, FSU, etc. In terms of which one makes more sense, none of us know.

The problem is you and a couple other posters on here treat everyone like idiots for doing the exact same thing you are doing - guessing. I hate to break it to you, but whatever "following" you are doing on expansion doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.
 
You are confusing the physical TV footprint, which has nothing to do with money, and viewer eyeballs, which drive the money. Having "access" to SC isn't relevant to a determination of market infiltration / $ - what we are talking about is ratings, i.e. eyeballs. The SEC probably has "TV access" to pretty much every household in the country anyways because it is on ESPN/CBS. What will make the SEC more money isn't access to markets per se, but instead getting people in those markets to tune in. If Clemson fans are watching Maryland-NC State on Jefferson Pilot, those are eyeballs the ACC is getting credit for, even though they could just as easily change the channel to Fla-Tenn on ESPN.


I am not confused.

While you are evaluating resumes based on font names and using the appeal to ridicule fallacy, I will fill you in. (Why do people often preface disrespectful statements with the word "respectfully"?)

I have a graduate degree in marketing and over fifteen years of experience in it. While I don't have insight into what these conferences are using as criteria, I am not exactly talking out my ass about a subject that I don't know about. It is not that others can't have an opinion without such a background, but let's at least drop the "you don't know what you are talking about" tack.

Just because the SEC has a national contract with ESPN does not mean that it will not get added value, beyond the number of fans for a school, from having a member in a new distinct location, Texas, for example. There are Jefferson-Pilot level SEC games as well. Those games would be available in Texas if there were an SEC member here. As it is, we only see those national SEC games. But I get lots of Big Twleve games on broadcast TV that you would only see with PPV.

The Big Ten Network contract should make the value of having a footprint in a state plain. They get paid considerably more by contract in states where there is a Big Ten school. But what is rleevant is that there is a reason they are paid more. That reason is that it is worth more in both advertising value and package value to consumers.

It is not the ONLY consideration for choosing an expansion target, but I assure you it is something that they have evaluated in cost/benefit analysis.
 
I agree with this too. Half the board acts like purported experts on the issue of expansion...And a bunch of junk about why they aren't experts...
Well, duh. But this is a fan board and we're SUPPOSED to talk like we know what we're saying. That's the whole point. Isn't it?

And I respectfully disagree with your point about Clemson's impact on TV. It may not be NO effect, but it is close to negligible. In SC those TVs already has access to SEC games. The Clemson fans may not be watching, while the Cocks are, but the fans from neither team that want to watch are already watching. In a market like WV & TX, you pick up the fan base, PLUS those random football watchers. That's significant versus the SC market.
 
I'm not talking down to you at all - was I wrong on you being an engineer with absolutely no experience in marketing or television?

Not to expose myself to the crossfire, but you do seem to be talking down in your posts.

It is not a guess to read that the Big 10 TV contract says they get paid more in states that they are in than not.

It is not a guess to note that the Big10 has zero interest in adding Pitt and "locking down" a big state like Pennsylvania. Or that there is no support for poaching Iowa State and locking down Iowa.

Every candidate was from a state already not represented and only one per state was ever discussed seriously.
(Notre Dame is always going to be an exception with their national prestige. If you want to argue Clemson is like that go ahead.)

Pac 10 expansion did the same thing. Two schools from separate not-represented states.
 
This was a really interesting, productive, and cordial thread until the haughtiness showed up snd the name calling.

Can we get back to the discussion, and you guys go to a rant board somewhere?

The front page of texags.com has a great News and Notes window with the updated links to the stories nationwide.
 
Well, we know that A&M is in and FSU will follow close behind.

I have it on good authority that their top targets after that are the Hokies and USC. They decided on USC because a tiny little known SEC rule that all expansion teams have to wear Maroon and after an expert reviewed Oklahoma they determined the Sooners are red not maroon.
 
It is not a guess to note that the Big10 has zero interest in adding Pitt and "locking down" a big state like Pennsylvania.
Ummmm, isn't PA already locked down what with Penn State already in the fold?
 
Ummmm, isn't PA already locked down what with Penn State already in the fold?


That was his and others point to Legal Jacket. If you already dominate the market share in a particular area, why would you utilize resources and such to dominate even more versus tapping into new markets where you're all but guaranteed to get a ridiculous ROI?
 
That was his and others point to Legal Jacket. If you already dominate the market share in a particular area, why would you utilize resources and such to dominate even more versus tapping into new markets where you're all but guaranteed to get a ridiculous ROI?

I agree with Penn St. v. Pitt, but that comparison doesn't apply to Clemson/SC. The state of Pennsylvania isn't divided at all - at least certainly not to the extent that South Carolina is. We are talking about markets that aren't already dominated, i.e. Florida (FSU v. Florida and a much lesser extent multiple other schools like Miami, USF, UCF, etc.) and South Carolina (Clemson/USC). Texas is probably the only exception because its so big (SEC could add UT but still be ok expanding with a school like A&M).

EDIT - There are certain markets (Texas) with big schools to poach that are no brainers but its a closer call (and to my original point, none of us know what we are talking about) when we try to compare a small market team like WVU to Clemson or FSU, or teams like Cincy whose market may intersect more with Kentucky than it does Ohio State, etc.
 
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And just like that, BAM! It's ON!

San Antonio Report

That last snippy comment by Beebe seems to have pushed ahead the schedule by a full week. Agenda released, vote coming Monday.

Woo Hoo, hold on to your seats Jackets!
 
It is not a guess to read that the Big 10 TV contract says they get paid more in states that they are in than not.

It is not a guess to note that the Big10 has zero interest in adding Pitt and "locking down" a big state like Pennsylvania. Or that there is no support for poaching Iowa State and locking down Iowa.

Every candidate was from a state already not represented and only one per state was ever discussed seriously.
(Notre Dame is always going to be an exception with their national prestige. If you want to argue Clemson is like that go ahead.)

Pac 10 expansion did the same thing. Two schools from separate not-represented states.

1) Again you are talking about eyeballs. Not geography.

2) I don't think we can say they have zero interest in locking down Pitt. I have no idea. I doubt there is too much interest in locking down Iowa State because their team stinks and they don't have fans. Pitt at least has a decent team and some fans. Is it a Notre Dame? No, but I think where the discussion is heading is it worth adding a team like Pitt as team #15 and a team like Cincy as team #16 (even though under y'alls "geographic" argument they still have Ohio and Penn "locked up").

3) The "prestige" argument is close to talking about eyeballs, but you just don't realize it (there are certainly other elements to prestige, but a lot of it is drawing interest from TV watchers). ND is king because it draws a huge number of viewers. Clemson definitely has appeal, particularly in the southeast.

The reason the "prestige" argument doesn't cover all situations is that a school doesn't have to be prestigious to bring something to the table. Take Cincinnati for example - they aren't nearly as prestigious as Ohio State but their lack of prestige and location in Ohio wouldn't necessarily keep the Big Ten from looking at them - rather, it would be a general lack of interest (i.e. eyeballs) in their football team, coupled with the fact I don't think Cincy is the type of academic school the Big 10 is interested in.

4) The SEC is supposedly looking into FSU, but they already have a Florida.

5) It's a pretty shallow and misleading analysis to say that Big 10 and Pac 10/12 candidates for expansion were from unrepresented states. There are an incredibly few number of states with more than one major college. The major states of those teams are typically in the same conferences. In other words, the "candidates" for expansion within states currently in that conference are going to be lesser candidates simply by virtue of being overshadowed in another state.

A couple examples:

Let's go with Oregon. They are a big enough state to support two major colleges: Oregon and OSU. You point to the fact the Pac 12 didn't look to Oregon as somehow being evidence that the Pac 10 wanted to expand beyond its existing borders. To the contrary, the reason they didn't look to Oregon is because there were no decent candidates in the state who were not already in the Pac 12. Were they going to add the University of Portland or Portland State over Colorado or Utah? Of course not.

Look at the schools in the other remaining states (Washington, California, and Arizona). Again, it's about adding the best schools, not about adding new states. The other schools in Wash, California, and Arizona are simply not on the same level as Colorado and Utah:

California
Cal Polytech State
California State (multiple)
Fresno State
Long Beach State
Loyola
Pacific
Pepperdine
Sacramento
Saint Mary's
San Diego
San Diego St.
San Francisco
San Jose State
Santa Clara
U Cal (multiple, Davis, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara)

Arizona
Northern Arizona

Washington
Eastern Washington
Gonzaga
Seattle

Same thing for the Big 10. DePaul, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, or Nebraska? Which one would you like to add?

How about Ball State, Butler, Indiana State, IUPUI, Valparaiso, or Nebraska?

What we are talking about here are teams like Clemson and FSU who, although there is another team in the same state, those are major schools that draw a lot of interest.
 
1) Again you are talking about eyeballs. Not geography.

2) I don't think we can say they have zero interest in locking down Pitt. I have no idea. I doubt there is too much interest in locking down Iowa State because their team stinks and they don't have fans. Pitt at least has a decent team and some fans. Is it a Notre Dame? No, but I think where the discussion is heading is it worth adding a team like Pitt as team #15 and a team like Cincy as team #16 (even though under y'alls "geographic" argument they still have Ohio and Penn "locked up").

3) The "prestige" argument is close to talking about eyeballs, but you just don't realize it (there are certainly other elements to prestige, but a lot of it is drawing interest from TV watchers). ND is king because it draws a huge number of viewers. Clemson definitely has appeal, particularly in the southeast.

The reason the "prestige" argument doesn't cover all situations is that a school doesn't have to be prestigious to bring something to the table. Take Cincinnati for example - they aren't nearly as prestigious as Ohio State but their lack of prestige and location in Ohio wouldn't necessarily keep the Big Ten from looking at them - rather, it would be a general lack of interest (i.e. eyeballs) in their football team, coupled with the fact I don't think Cincy is the type of academic school the Big 10 is interested in.

4) The SEC is supposedly looking into FSU, but they already have a Florida.

5) It's a pretty shallow and misleading analysis to say that Big 10 and Pac 10/12 candidates for expansion were from unrepresented states. There are an incredibly few number of states with more than one major college. The major states of those teams are typically in the same conferences. In other words, the "candidates" for expansion within states currently in that conference are going to be lesser candidates simply by virtue of being overshadowed in another state.

A couple examples:

Let's go with Oregon. They are a big enough state to support two major colleges: Oregon and OSU. You point to the fact the Pac 12 didn't look to Oregon as somehow being evidence that the Pac 10 wanted to expand beyond its existing borders. To the contrary, the reason they didn't look to Oregon is because there were no decent candidates in the state who were not already in the Pac 12. Were they going to add the University of Portland or Portland State over Colorado or Utah? Of course not.

Look at the schools in the other remaining states (Washington, California, and Arizona). Again, it's about adding the best schools, not about adding new states. The other schools in Wash, California, and Arizona are simply not on the same level as Colorado and Utah:

California
Cal Polytech State
California State (multiple)
Fresno State
Long Beach State
Loyola
Pacific
Pepperdine
Sacramento
Saint Mary's
San Diego
San Diego St.
San Francisco
San Jose State
Santa Clara
U Cal (multiple, Davis, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara)

Arizona
Northern Arizona

Washington
Eastern Washington
Gonzaga
Seattle

Same thing for the Big 10. DePaul, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, or Nebraska? Which one would you like to add?

How about Ball State, Butler, Indiana State, IUPUI, Valparaiso, or Nebraska?

What we are talking about here are teams like Clemson and FSU who, although there is another team in the same state, those are major schools that draw a lot of interest.
Forget that öööö... HERE COMES MONGO!

Blazing-Saddles-Mongo.png


A&M is moving, and let the dominoes begin.
 
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