Khalil Tate tweeted he didnt want the TO so Niumatalolo wouldnt be hired

rghoae said:
All the discussion about the TO on these boards is quite frustrating when the numbers (and the eye test) clearly show that our biggest problems are on defense. We’ve been through multiple DCs running multiple systems, and our defense has rarely looked good (and when it has, we have succeeded). This is despite the fact that the TO shortens games, and makes our poor per game numbers look better than they would have otherwise.

The question we should be asking most of CPJ isn’t how he can do better on offense but rather why his defense sucks so much. He cannot just pin it on the DC and say it’s their responsibility because he is the head coach and responsible for the entire team.
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The argument by some is that we can't recruit defensive playmakers because of the Triple Option Offense, or the defense can't get ready for games because of the TO. I would counter that argument with we seem to the only school running the TO that has ever had that problem.

I think the best DC we've had during the CPJ era has been Kelly, who was only here half of a season and still did not show himself to be a great DC using FSU level talent. I hope Woody ends up a being a better than average DC, we'll see. At the least CPJ has recognized the defense as being a problem and has tried to make changes.
 
aeromech said:
The argument from those who like this scheme is that the scheme takes the best advantage of the talent that GT is able to recruit. If you acknowledge we are at a recruiting disadvantage, which you do, and you try and do the exact same thing everybody else is doing, only with your lesser talent, you will get the results Chan Gailey got. I wish we could get the same talent as UGA, Bama, Clemson, UF, FSU, etcetera; just like everyone else does; but the reality is no matter who the coach is we will not recruit at that level given our institutional constraints.

And for those of you so giddy about the Chan Gailey recruiting years, do you not remember how patchwork our offensive line was in 2008-09. We had an undersized walk on at center, an undersized converted TE at tackle, and no depth. We would have never recognized the talent we had in the backfield with that patchwork offensive line running a pro-set. 2009 would have looked like the Orange Bowl in '10 all season long.
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The problem is, we're getting the same ranks of recruits and, with one exception (2014), the results have been very similar to Chan Ball.
This year is the Senior class of the post-2014-season recruits. That was CPJ's highwater mark and should've been one of his best recruiting years IMO. Let's see how these kids pan out this year (and next, for the redshirts).

CPJ hasn't had anything like Chan's 2007(?) 18th-ranked recruiting class and it's highly doubtful he'll ever come close to that, given the limitations presented by the TO. So if the results have flattened out to similar seasonal records as Chan Ball, with no improvement in recruiting, then it's clear the scheme isn't giving us the advantage some claim it does.

This is a HUGE year for us. I hope the 2014 class goes out with a bang!

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT want Chan back as coach. I recognize that there are other coaches in football besides CPJ and Gailey. Because I'm occasionally critical of CPJ does not indicate a desire to return to the malaise and wasted opportunities of Chan Ball.
 
You look at all other coaches who interviewed in 2001 and 2007, all of the alternatives were fired. Tom O'Brien turned us down before we hired Gailey. He asked for more academic exceptions and didn't get it. Randy Edsall and Rick Neuheisel were top alternative names from 2007.

A non-TO coach who had CPJ's same exact record would probably have the same arguments. Many schools have had firings the rest of the nation finds ill-advised, based on the school's limitations. Then they end up in the wilderness for a long time.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
The problem is, we're getting the same ranks of recruits and, with one exception (2014), the results have been very similar to Chan Ball.
This year is the Senior class of the post-2014-season recruits. That was CPJ's highwater mark and should've been one of his best recruiting years IMO. Let's see how these kids pan out this year (and next, for the redshirts).

CPJ hasn't had anything like Chan's 2007(?) 18th-ranked recruiting class and it's highly doubtful he'll ever come close to that, given the limitations presented by the TO. So if the results have flattened out to similar seasonal records as Chan Ball, with no improvement in recruiting, then it's clear the scheme isn't giving us the advantage some claim it does.

This is a HUGE year for us. I hope the 2014 class goes out with a bang!

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT want Chan back as coach. I recognize that there are other coaches in football besides CPJ and Gailey. Because I'm occasionally critical of CPJ does not indicate a desire to return to the malaise and wasted opportunities of Chan Ball.
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RW92, not to take anything away from CCG as a recruiter, because he was a good one and one couldn't possibly meet him without firmly believing he was an impressive, friendly, and exceptional individual. However, as the remainder of classes other than 2007 indicate, in reality he had about as much success as CPJ. What you may not be aware of (I emphasize "may" because I don't know your longer term recruiting knowledge), is that 2007 was a truly exceptional year for recruiting in GA, as well as the SE in general, and quite a number of our difference makers did not have GT as their preferred choice. A lot of marquee type programs simply filled up their classes. This may temper your emphasis on this one class.
I too believe the TO has a negative influence on our recruiting, especially with passing QBs and WRs, but look, you have to realize that everything is relative and based on the reality of other factors compared to the negative TO impact, it's not even close. Just a modicum of research on the academic status of the better players in high school vs Tech's standards, will make this abundantly clear.
 
GoldZ said:
RW92, not to take anything away from CCG as a recruiter, because he was a good one and one couldn't possibly meet him without firmly believing he was an impressive, friendly, and exceptional individual. However, as the remainder of classes other than 2007 indicate, in reality he had about as much success as CPJ. What you may not be aware of (I emphasize "may" because I don't know your longer term recruiting knowledge), is that 2007 was a truly exceptional year for recruiting in GA, as well as the SE in general, and quite a number of our difference makers did not have GT as their preferred choice. A lot of marquee type programs simply filled up their classes. This may temper your emphasis on this one class.
I too believe the TO has a negative influence on our recruiting, especially with passing QBs and WRs, but look, you have to realize that everything is relative and based on the reality of other factors compared to the negative TO impact, it's not even close. Just a modicum of research on the academic status of the better players in high school vs Tech's standards, will make this abundantly clear.
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no real disagreement with most of that but the point remains that, at best, CPJ and the TO have not improved our ability to recruit. Given our academic restrictions, we're shooting ourselves in the foot by having a scheme that is an additional hamper to recruiting. Importantly, without great athletes, the TO is going to be as middle-of-the-pack as any other scheme.
After watching it and all its effects for 10 years, the argument that it is a game-changer for us isn't a great one. We had as much success against the mutts with Friedgen's Flexbone scheme. Similarly and strangely, neither of these schemes had a competent D. 2018 is CPJ's opportunity to finally field a competent D, which would go miles in getting a few more important wins for the program and I hope this happens. Apologies for not being terribly optimistic though, rainbows and unicorns aside.
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
no real disagreement with most of that but the point remains that, at best, CPJ and the TO have not improved our ability to recruit. Given our academic restrictions, we're shooting ourselves in the foot by having a scheme that is an additional hamper to recruiting. Importantly, without great athletes, the TO is going to be as middle-of-the-pack as any other scheme.
After watching it and all its effects for 10 years, the argument that it is a game-changer for us isn't a great one. We had as much success against the mutts with Friedgen's Flexbone scheme. Similarly and strangely, neither of these schemes had a competent D. 2018 is CPJ's opportunity to finally field a competent D, which would go miles in getting a few more important wins for the program and I hope this happens. Apologies for not being terribly optimistic though, rainbows and unicorns aside.
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Friedgen's Flexbone offense never beat Mark Richt or FSU (Ralph's offense got shutout against FSU his first return season as our OC 0-38). So yes, Friedgen's offense was good; but he did not have the success that CPJ has had against Mark Richt; even when he had Joe Hamilton as a quarterback. [RF's offense also got shut out back in '87 against NCState]
 
aeromech said:
Friedgen's Flexbone offense never beat Mark Richt or FSU (Ralph's offense got shutout against FSU his first return season as our OC 0-38). So yes, Friedgen's offense was good; but he did not have the success that CPJ has had against Mark Richt; even when he had Joe Hamilton as a quarterback. [RF's offense also got shut out back in '87 against NCState]
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I agree with the direction you are going but this comparison is sort of apples to oranges.
 
aeromech said:
Friedgen's Flexbone offense never beat Mark Richt or FSU (Ralph's offense got shutout against FSU his first return season as our OC 0-38). So yes, Friedgen's offense was good; but he did not have the success that CPJ has had against Mark Richt; even when he had Joe Hamilton as a quarterback. [RF's offense also got shut out back in '87 against NCState]
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?????
Friedgen's flexbone beat the mutts 3 in a row. Respectfully, WTH are you talking about?
Friedgen also won a natty as OC in 1990, something CPJ will never do at Tech.

Brad Chambers foot ending the streak in 1998. 51-48 (Sanks, Jasper!) in 1999. OMGodsey lighting 'em up in 2000. How do you just forget these?
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
?????
Friedgen's flexbone beat the mutts 3 in a row. Respectfully, WTH are you talking about?
Friedgen also won a natty as OC in 1990, something CPJ will never do at Tech.

Brad Chambers foot ending the streak in 1998. 51-48 (Sanks, Jasper!) in 1999. OMGodsey lighting 'em up in 2000. How do you just forget these?
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:facepalm:Check where Mark Richt was in the late 90’s and 2000.
 
TampaBayJacket said:
I'm using the NFL draft and NFL rosters as my judge. Once you get out of the top 30 rankings, the only difference between 40th and 80th ranking seems to be how big your class is. Our talent level is clearly below what it was 10 years ago. The old timers say the late 70s and 80s were really when Tech hit rock bottom talent wise so I wont go full hyperbole and say this is the worst its ever been but its definitely the worst in the ACC (even below Duke/Wake!). The only P5 team I'd feel confident we out-talented right now would be Kansas.
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I dont feel like going and looking at draft results, but I did look at blue chip talent (4 stars). CCG got 11 of them in 6 years, CPJ 13 in 11 years. So it is true that Gailey averaged about 1 extra 4-star every 2 years, although he also took more 2 stars than CPJ does. Again, thats skewed a bit by the 2007 class, is hardly a precipitous dropoff, and also coincided with Bobinski's reign of apathy and a tougher recruiting environment for Tech overall.
 
aeromech said:
... At the least CPJ has recognized the defense as being a problem and has tried to make changes.
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You don't think PJ has recognized all along what his defenses have been doing on Saturday's while his offense isn't on the field?
 
As I think I recall, a prime factor in the successful recruiting of several stars in our 2007 class was the relationship between several of the mothers who went to college together, shared a preference for Tech, and became an active back channel in the recruiting of this class. An almost freak occurrence that was acknowledged as a once in many years alignment of the sun, moon, and stars - Chan's good luck, not his recruiting prowess.
 
samsgt02 said:
:facepalm:Check where Mark Richt was in the late 90’s and 2000.
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lol - thought you were talking about the mutts.

Bowden coached FSU during that period, not Richt. Friedgen's offense never faced Richt's FSU QBs (since that's what CMR was during that time).

:facepalm:
 
TampaBayJacket said:
I'm using the NFL draft and NFL rosters as my judge. Once you get out of the top 30 rankings, the only difference between 40th and 80th ranking seems to be how big your class is. Our talent level is clearly below what it was 10 years ago. The old timers say the late 70s and 80s were really when Tech hit rock bottom talent wise so I wont go full hyperbole and say this is the worst its ever been but its definitely the worst in the ACC (even below Duke/Wake!). The only P5 team I'd feel confident we out-talented right now would be Kansas.
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Old timer here, and the late 70s and early 80s teams you reference would have been slaughtered by any CPJ era team.
His ACC record is 46-34 which includes Miami, VT, and Clemson, so obviously his record vs all others is pretty good (granted it's worse lately). Hence, if we have the worst talent in the ACC, CPJ must be "coaching" at Dodd/Ross levels, huh?
The APR rule started a few years before CPJ arrived and we were suffering low grad rates. Now we are graduating a high % of players and have STILL won 8+ games 5 times and beat ugag 3 times---not too shabby for worst talent in the ACC.
I'm still waiting for a long (ok make it short, as in 1-2) list of coaches in D-1 with our restrictions, who have much higher recruiting rankings and better won/loss records. My take is, I (and most here) will be looong gone when that day arrives because it will require massive societal change.
 
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GoldZ said:
Old timer here, and the late 70s and early 80s teams you reference would have been slaughtered by any CPJ era team.
His ACC record is 46-34 which includes Miami, VT, and Clemson, so obviously his record vs all others is pretty good (granted it's worse lately). Hence, if we have the worst talent in the ACC, CPJ must be "coaching" at Dodd/Ross levels, huh?
The APR rule started a few years before CPJ arrived and we were suffering low grad rates. Now we are graduating a high % of players and have STILL won 8+ games 5 times and beat ugag 3 times---not too shabby for worst talent in the ACC.
I'm still waiting for a long (ok make it short, as in 1-2) list of coaches in D-1 with our restrictions, who have much higher recruiting rankings and better won/loss records. My take is, I (and most here) will be looong gone when that day arrives because it will require massive societal change.
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Apr apr apr apr apr hahahahahahahahahahahah give me a break
 
RamblinWreck92 said:
lol - thought you were talking about the mutts.

Bowden coached FSU during that period, not Richt. Friedgen's offense never faced Richt's FSU QBs (since that's what CMR was during that time).

:facepalm:
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lol - do you really think the mutts with Donnan as head coach was equivalent to UGA with Richt or Smart as head coach? I am confident that CPJ would have a winning record against UGA if Donnan was in charge. I think O'leary/Friedgen would have eventually beat a Richt coached UGA; but they would have never had a 3 game win streak.
 
aeromech said:
lol - do you really think the mutts with Donnan as head coach was equivalent to UGA with Richt or Smart as head coach? I am confident that CPJ would have a winning record against UGA if Donnan was in charge. I think O'leary/Friedgen would have eventually beat a Richt coached UGA; but they would have never had a 3 game win streak.
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Donnan's mutts weren't any worse than the 09 or 15 mutts. The 09 team was so bad, it fired its DC (after they shut down CPJ). The 2015 mutts were worse than any mutt team we've faced since the 70s. They got CMR fired, after he whipped ol CPJ.
 
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